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Kristi31 · Top Cat Joined: 24 Nov 2007 Posts: 378 Location: Montreal

Hi,

I'm now eating only fresh, non-aged beef to avoid amines as I strongly suspect I have an intolerance to them. I'm not completely sure the beef is non-aged. Therefore, I'm curious as to how soon I should see an improvement and disappearance of symptoms. Is there a period of withdrawal?

Let's say I don't see any improvement after a few weeks, should I drop the beef and change my diet? How long do I wait before I know that this isn't working?

Thanks.

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adwred · Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:41 pm Post subject:

Yes, you can have detox reactions for, I'd say, up to a month after giving up amines. But beef is generally and aged meat. It's very difficult to include beef in your diet if you're amine-sensitive, as beef is almost always aged for at least 2 weeks and often up to 3. Lamb and veal are much safer bets.
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Carne Vorare · Top Cat Joined: 24 Oct 2007 Posts: 363

so..if i dont get a reaction to plain beef then im not amine-sensitive?

or, perhaps sensitive only to certain amines..

adwred · Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:39 am Post subject:

Yes it could be to certain amines. Or your source for beef is rather fresh.
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Carnation · Top Carnivore Joined: 15 Dec 2007 Posts: 3586

Wouldn't an elimination diet (and subsequent test re-introduction) be useful in sorting this out?

adwred · Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:03 am Post subject:

Indeed it would. That would require eating a diet exclusively of very fresh lamb, veal, eggs and skinless chicken (Kristi, you probably don't eat raw chicken!), if you're a dairy-free carnivore. Then you can trial beef or fatty fish or liver and see what happens. If you react, you'll know you're probably amine-sensitive.
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I'm a vegetable-eater by proxy. I make sure to get 5-10 servings of herbivore per day.

Kristi31 · Top Cat Joined: 24 Nov 2007 Posts: 378 Location: Montreal

I'm not sure but I think I remember hearing ...from you (?) that ground beef is ok. Is it? The ground beef is already packaged.

Problem with lamb, veal and chicken is that cuts are pretty lean and lamb rib chops are damn expensive. (I'm gonna go check out another store today). Can't find ground lamb either. BUT, I did find veal plate shortribs and flank ribs. Affordable and quite fatty but not nearly to the same extent as beef shortribs. We'll see how it goes.

I was wondering...does pork or beef fat contain as much amines as the meat? I wouldn't think so due to the absence of proteins but maybe I'm missing something. What about bone marrow, in general? Is that high amines, no matter what the animal is?

I just want to make things simple and have my fatty meat with nothing else but water, of course. But, I just might include some ghee (no lactose, no casein) IF it is of high quality to ensure that I'm getting enough fat.

Oh boy, this is getting so complicated. Stupid amines! Mad

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Nicola · Top Cat Joined: 21 Mar 2007 Posts: 379

STAY SIMPLE; meat was never eaten at once and things did not get put in a refrigerator! Meat and fat was not calculated!

I get my fat seperate (lamb's suet) and it's different every day and I just add this to the meat I eat and go by tast/mood!

Fat, meat, organs some day's smelly just like life!

By the way; water -quality, that is questionable.

adwred · Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject:

Kristi31 · Top Cat Joined: 24 Nov 2007 Posts: 378 Location: Montreal

I found some lamb rib chops from Quebec, fresh from today. Pretty fatty but it depends on the piece too. Not too expensive either. Forget about NZ!!! These are much fattier and besides, I can't find any NZ lamb chops, just shoulder, which is much less fattier. And half the year, they're vaccum-packed and frozen.

The veal shortribs I bought yesterday aren't that fatty after all. When I took them out from the styrofoam pack, it was more lean than fat.

So, for now, I'm sticking to lamb only and I like the taste anyways. Lamb rib chops alone, without any other fat, should suffice. Nutrition data for this cut seems to indicate 2 parts FAT to 1 part PROTEIN (when trimmed to 1/8 inches). Some of the pieces I bought have more than 1/8 inches of fat. So, it's all good. What also convinces me that lamb rib chops are fatty enough on their own is that yesterday, when eating out at the restaurant, I dipped most of my lamb in olive oil to increase fat % and later, suffered symptoms from excess fat. So, the lamb eaten alone would have been plenty enough without the need for anything else. Whereas veal doesn't satisfy me, still leaves me hungry and gives me abdominal cramps which, in my case, is usually a sign of NOT enough fat.

Should lamb rib chops not be available although there were plenty today, I'll supplement with...GHEE. I bought some at the store. I prefer to avoid casein and lactose. So...I'm all set!

Awred, thanks again for all your help. Much appreciated.

Happy

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Carne Vorare · Top Cat Joined: 24 Oct 2007 Posts: 363

Kristi31 · Top Cat Joined: 24 Nov 2007 Posts: 378 Location: Montreal

So, things have been improving much lately, eating fatty veal ribs. After about 1 week on diet of only veal, some of my symptoms have disappeared while others have improved. I am actually pretty amazed and very happy. Happy

Recently, I came across some fatty duck thighs and breasts, although vacuum-packed. I would think this out of question, right? Also, they sell rendered duck fat but do mention that there may be some cross-contamination with soy, wheat, nuts, etc due to the machines processing also these things or something like that. I am gluten intolerant and nuts are certainly not my best friend. I would think this is also out of question, right?

In general, is duck (with skin) ok for amine intolerant individuals?
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adwred · Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:47 pm Post subject:

I seem to do fine with duck!
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I'm a vegetable-eater by proxy. I make sure to get 5-10 servings of herbivore per day.

Kristi31 · Top Cat Joined: 24 Nov 2007 Posts: 378 Location: Montreal

Ate some duck leg today so let's see what happens...
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Kristi31 · Top Cat Joined: 24 Nov 2007 Posts: 378 Location: Montreal

Had a miserable night and morning. I'm pretty sure my reaction was directly related to the duck I ate, especially given the spacey feeling I had soon after eating it. I think it's because it was vacuum-packed.

I'm gonna have duck fat instead. Wink

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adwred · Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 6:04 pm Post subject:

Oh yes, I should have mentioned the vac-pack part. That usually changes the situation up a bit. Any vac-packed meat is a no-no for me.
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I'm a vegetable-eater by proxy. I make sure to get 5-10 servings of herbivore per day.

Kristi31 · Top Cat Joined: 24 Nov 2007 Posts: 378 Location: Montreal

Indeed!

So anyways, I ate some duck fat today combined with white-flesh fish (halibut). Based on past experiences, I do well with these types of fish. As long as eaten the same day or the day after.

Ever since my meal, I have cravings...not for fat, not for meat but just cravings...hard to explain...like something is missing and this is making me very irritated, frustrated, a bit like an alcoholic who is abstaining from alcohol. I ate some more fish and fat until I couldn't eat anymore. But the cravings still persist. One thing I'm craving for example is fried calamari, mayonnaise, all those junk foods. Yea...that's it...I'm craving junk mostly...oooh and doritos!!! Bonkers

I haven't had these sorts of cravings for a veeeeeeeeery long time.

This leads me to believe that I may finally be on the right track, having truly eliminated all "problem foods". Could I be going through withdrawal?

Let me know what you think...
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adwred · Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:57 pm Post subject:

It could very likely be!
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I'm a vegetable-eater by proxy. I make sure to get 5-10 servings of herbivore per day.

Kristi31 · Top Cat Joined: 24 Nov 2007 Posts: 378 Location: Montreal

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"When you give up your dream, you die"

Carne Vorare · Top Cat Joined: 24 Oct 2007 Posts: 363

Kristi31 · Top Cat Joined: 24 Nov 2007 Posts: 378 Location: Montreal

I think I may have finally figured out why I'm having intolerances to food and all these symptoms. But until I'm 100% sure, I'm not telling.

I'll definetly update though and let you all know as this may benefit others.

Later...
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Carnation · Top Carnivore Joined: 15 Dec 2007 Posts: 3586

Kristi31 · Top Cat Joined: 24 Nov 2007 Posts: 378 Location: Montreal

Hehe...

well here goes, it's a hypothesis but up to now, seems to be working just great.

The reason I was having problems was not due to amines but due to protein indigestion, which wrecks havoc on the body in many ways, feeding pathogens who then release toxins, irritating the gut, being attacked by antibodies as it is considered a foreign intruder (unrecognizable) and illicting allergies, histamine release, etc. Also, constipation is the result.

Protein indigestion is the result, in my case, of not enough fat. Digestion requires energy and protein alone cannot provide that as it requires more energy for digestion than what it provides to the body. Hence, the need for either carbs and/or fat and lots of it. Since I'm zero carb, energy needs to come from fat and my fat intake was just too low relative to protein.

Symptoms I experienced in addition to constipation were:
anxiety, insomnia, hyperactivity, too much weight loss, inability to adapt to ketones, fatigue after a meal and drowsiness, rashes, hives, hypersensitive skin, aggressiveness, moody, low sexual drive, dry skin, bloating, abdominal cramps, etc. Perhaps my sinus problem is also a consequence of this, most probably actually.

Since substantially upping my fat and inevitably eating less protein as fat quickly satiates, I have noticed improvement already in just 2 days.
I've eaten aged beef and no problems, no fatigue, no hives, no headache, barely anxious. I have more energy. Skin is more lubricated. Little things...but I expect improvements to continue.

I eat very fatty beef cuts such as chuck, shortribs for now, combined with some bone marrow. Lots of fat. It's hard to eat more than once or twice a day. I eat much less, like a little less than a pound compared to almost a kilo of meat sometimes, daily.

I came to this conclusion looking back on those times I felt the best and the worst. And it had all to do with fat vs protein intake.

Sort of a rabbit starvation I was going through but obviously not to the same extent since I ate some fat.

I estimate my fat intake to represent at least 70% of calories, probably more, maybe up to 80-85%. Earlier during my zero carb journey, I mistakenly thought that my fat intake was that high but it was probably around 60-70%, and in the beginning when I was mostly eating organ meats with coconut oil, fat intake was probably 50-60%. Imagine that!

There! I'm not a tease anymore. Grin

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cabalco · Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:30 am Post subject:

Hi Kristi,

could you give me an example how to calculate the protein:fat ratio? For example 300 grams of ground beef has about 70-80 grams of protein and about 60 grams of fat. I would add about 60-80g of butter to this meal. Does this amount fit?

So 80 grams of protein and 120g of fat is which ratio?

Kristi31 · Top Cat Joined: 24 Nov 2007 Posts: 378 Location: Montreal

1:1 protein grams to fat is about 70% calories from fat and 30% calories from protein.

1:2 protein grams to fat is about 80%.
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cabalco · Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:41 am Post subject:

OK, thanks Kristi. My problem was not not enough fat. It is just a lack of potassium, which can dehydrate too. Potatoes are the key Cool