Active No-Carber Forums

Avalon · Top Carnivore Joined: 29 Nov 2006 Posts: 3326

I hope no one takes offense at what I'm going to write, but I feel compelled to throw my three cents in the stew pot.

Two days ago I re-read his now infamous posts saved here on ANC, from top to bottom. I am nothing short of amazed by his now more than 47 year meat eating journey. The passion he has for this WOE is remarkable and somewhat intimidating. Sadly I think there were problems in River City and one can clearly feel his angst as he battles the masses of no carb skeptics. I started to respond to each entry that spoke for me to do so, but why do that, since I'm sure it was done already at the time of original posting. I could use quotes even, but I'm just going to wing some thoughts I have about this Man, The Bear...

His stance is clear. His feelings sure. His way of eating including that of Stefansson and the Inuit will bring good health and can perhaps cure/prevent many illnesses one being Diabetes. I don't argue this premise, but I will add that changing from SAD to a 'raw food' diet apparently accomplishes the same thing. That 'not always', but his bad rap on carbs is misplaced. I would say that many, not all, who suffer Diabetes are in that spot because of over indulging in processed non-real-foods- Bad Carbs. And that if they'd been eating veggies, fruits and proteins the outcome would have been different.

As the thread progressed his tone of message changed. He started to mildly put people down. Using words like 'ignorant' didn't help his cause. And it seemed to me that he went from telling his story to indeed a cause to have a following. He starts using 'My' and 'I' in the sense that I began to feel his 'I am the Way' weighing on me. Over and over he professes that he is only trying to share his story, but I don't think this is quite honest on his part. He clearly wants people to believe him, and to follow his WOE for to him it is the right path to follow. If he'd only wished to share his story, the thread would have ended much earlier.

He argues against scientific studies as proof against the Meat eating way, Yet he continually searches for his own records (finds them) of studies that support his own ideal. You can't have it both ways. There are arguments arguing for more arguments against more arguments. Ying Yang, Up Down, Right Wrong, Good Bad, Light Dark, Life Death. If he can submit his own found Googled studies, then some of these other studies shouldn't be dismissed simply because they are scientific studies. Or it was simply the word 'scientific' that was incorrect.

I don't want to sound like I'm in bashing mode, because I'm not. But as you read his posts, it's almost a tragedy in the works. The mob begins to turn and you already know where this is going. It's going to end, or should I say begin- here. On this forum. So, not such a tragedy after all.

It's interesting really, because the cause and effect scenario/ alternate ending could have been quite different. he could have, after the first battles began, retreated by not replying at all. If he'd done this, this forum may never have been created. Instead, he kept at it, repeating his stance and unfortunately it is my belief- he let his ego/personality often snap back at the very people he was trying to convince. And this doesn't work. Imagine a nasty Jesus. "I can save you, but if you want to keep living in IGNORANCE, go right ahead AND DIE!!!" and oh, "BURN IN HELL!". Only it did work to a degree, for you are here. But it might have been more grand if he had taken a different tact. Not everyone who has a message can deliver it.

The Inuit. The Bear kept at it that they lived to 90+. Some may have, but they certainly have not been singled out as a long-lived culture. And you know the opposite is more commonly known. That they have short lives- perhaps due to the weather/environmental conditions. I don't think there is any certainty other than they lead very healthy lives up to their death. When there is ever any study of importance, there usually are many test subjects, the more the better. But other than the Inuit, who has there been? The only test subjects I know of were Stefansson and Anderson. The bear doesn't count as a test subject for the very reason it is all subjective and we are all somewhat unique. I know he said he didn't want to hear that- bunk. But we are. Some can eat whatever they want and not gain a single pound. No ones teeth are the same. Your right eye might be higher than your left. My Yorkie developed Diabetes(yes probably from that crappy canned food) but others don't on that same food. If he had actually lived under observation for a year it would have been more important as a scientific study, but still hardly conclusive evidence that what worked for him would work for all. Yes, we are all human with the same anatomy, God willing, but then the deeper you dig the more different we are. I had a weak eye muscle that needed surgery when I was 6 years old. Why just me, and not my Sister or Brother? Your flora are not my flora. EWWW! How about that for a line on a Hot Date! "Would you like to come up to my place and share some mitocondria with me?"

Those of you who know something of Avalon, know that my reasons for cutting back on meat consumption are primarily a love for animals and my uncertainty of what is man's true diet. Is there a true diet if we are all products of our parents, parents, parents... If we start eating different at 30, 40 or 50, is that enough time to undue whatever damage has been done? Certainly some of it. But for those with children, it's more complicated. My guess is many of the longest lived cultures have been eating well for generations. So it's the children that carry on the benefits- Family to Family. So eat well up till you have kids, then it's all down hill after that. JUST KIDDING! I know, you want to be around for them and the grand ones.

Something also struck me. The Bears Cancer. He repeated that the Doctors said his Cancer had something to do with DNA. That was a Red Flag to me. And I'm only thinking here, but that Non-Human molecule that I've read about Neu5GC- we don't make it, only mammals do, but it still finds it's way into our bodies through beef, pork and lamb- and is found in cancerous tumors. Maybe his cancer was from working in the Bars, or from smoking all those years ago- or, maybe from a Non-Human molecule. No proof here, but something to think about. And as I mentioned before, how could we know if we are supposed to be eating cows. Maybe we're fish carnivores! I don't know. Maybe keeping a balance of fish and red meat would negate the danger. It's been shown true (if you believe)- simplistically, that eating raw food with cooked negates the body from seeing the cooked food as an invader. I have the links somewhere Wink

No, really.

I just wanted to share some of my feelings after reading The Bears posts again. I appreciate that all of you are trying so hard to find what works best for you. From keeping some carbs, to HCL to Asorbic Acid. And believe me when I read something that touches me I hear it. If I try it and it doesn't work for me, maybe something else will. I respect The Bear's lifestyle. I'm not sure it will work for everyone, but I certainly wouldn't want to stop anyone from finding out if it's what they need to do. I'm fascinated by the idea of living well on only fatty meat. Of course I'm torn with the animal life-lost stuff but that's my dilemma- for now. That may change... once a month when I give in to that Rib Eye DOHHH!!!

As an end note, anyone hear of the Campbell Brothers? With a combined age of 424 they've always hated veggies and kept with the meat side of the food chain.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/food/Story/0,,1791200,00.html Wink

Scout Finch · Meat Devil Joined: 08 Aug 2006 Posts: 1162

Avalon, you make some good points. I wish I had more time to respond fully, but maybe throughout the day I can add more as time permits.

Bear is one guy. It's important to keep that in mind. I didn't come to zero carb because of Bear, I actually started in May 2005 after reading Mackarness' book. I had been doing Atkins for 7 years when I started zero. I only discovered Bear and this forum about a year later (in summer 2006) through the posts at the LC board. That thread over there was cruising for a flame-out, no question. It really degenerated in the end, and I thought both sides (he and his detractors in there) had really become trollish. But anyway.

You are raising some interesting points about the diet, but IMHO, these kinds of questions are being raised about ALL diets. If you go to a vegan board, there are people questioning it over there. If you go to the LC forum, there are folks going in and flaming them for their "religion" to LC (that was a recent thread I saw over there). I don't care what it is - there are detractors, non-believers if you will, folks who question the wisdom and scientific scrutiny that's offered as evidence.

I think the bear's cancer is up for grabs as far as causation. There are people who are high carb who get cancer all the time. It seemed more likely to me that his was related to second-hand smoke (or was he a smoker back then? I don't recall). Diet-related? Who can say? As far as the DNA thing and his carcinoma, well, I'm not a doctor but aren't all or many cancers some form of DNA or cellular level mutation gone awry? That's what cancer is - a growth of abnormal cells. It's the causation that's tricky. Whether it's diet, environmental, toxin-related, whatever.

On the scientific studies debate, the LC people are in the same boat as the ZC people - in order to accept that LC is healthy, we are going to have to discount the research being done on high carb diets and what they show. Sorry, but that's my take on it. I don't see how anybody doing LC or ZC can believe in the cholesterol hypothesis, for example. Frankly, the cholesterol research is pretty scant anyway. There really is a strong case that cholesterol doesn't contribute to heart disease. I've also seen some great threads at the LC forum that are very good at recognizing "bad science" in some of these studies. (Jeff is one of those people who seems to have read much of the research and done some thinking on it-he has some great contributions over there.) The problem is that all of the research is slanted, or most of it anyway, and because of this, LC/ZC doesn't have a chance in hell of coming out smelling like a rose. I guess there was a recent study excoriating Ornish and the Zone and putting Atkins on top, but even then the researchers discounted the diet and said "don't try this at home!" I like the Eades blog for some of the scientific research - he's an M.D., he's good at dissecting and explaining a lot of the bogusness of these high-carb diet studies.

Ultimately, you have to decide what works for you. That's true of any eating plan. Sure, fruits, veggies, and "whole grains" will work for many people. Unfortunately, they didn't work for me. I could not keep from binge-eating when I was doing a low-fat diet. It was too hard, my blood sugar was too unstable, which I in part chalk up to genetics (another good point you made). Diabetes runs in my family, I was always hypoglycemic, and I always had crazy blood sugar stuff going on with high-carb.

But I'm coming more and more to the conclusion that the low-fat dogma is working for far fewer people than we are led to believe. EVen though we are told incessantly that this is the "way."

Great questions, great post, Avalon. My responses are scattered (sorry!), but I wanted to jump in and respond and maybe I can clarify or be more specific later in the day.

elenarose · Top Cat Joined: 24 Aug 2006 Posts: 428

ReddyMcMeaty · The Boss Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 5776

Avalon, I just wanted to mention that this forum was not created as a "following" to the Bear, although certainly anyone who felt like doing so would be very welcome here. It was because I was annoyed that someone was kicked off of the Active Low Carber forums for what seemed like no good reason (he now has his own forums which I'm sure you've been contacted about), I was also tired of the anti-nocarb sentiment over there. Anything positive about not needing vegetables was being discouraged.

I believe "carnivore" is a viable and very healthy lifestyle. I will never be 100% zero carb for life, I'll do bouts of it, and bouts of other things (I enjoy raw milk for example), and over my lifetime in general just try to keep carbs very low and feel good physically.. and enjoy the benefits of no fibre. I don't foresee giving up alcohol completely. Or Sushi. It's not because there is anything inherently wrong with zero carb, I'm just not consistent with food and despite all intentions I know I will stray.

I hope no one feels that because they can't live up to the Bear's ideals that they are not welcome on a no carb forum. It was made to talk about food, and other things Smile

_________________
"Man lives on one quarter of what he eats. On the other three quarters lives his doctor."

Scout Finch · Meat Devil Joined: 08 Aug 2006 Posts: 1162

Meg, this is O.T., or I guess sort of bear-related, but what happened to Rob? Has he posted in a while?

Avalon · Top Carnivore Joined: 29 Nov 2006 Posts: 3326

Hey! Okay, Scout wrote:

Jeff726 · Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:39 am Post subject:

The only true Bear devotee I know of is Rob. He bashes "the cult of atkins", but never questions anything the Bear says?

ReddyMcMeaty · The Boss Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 5776

I haven't heard from Rob in ages, I sent him a pm a while back but there was no response. I believe he was having some personal issues before he disappeared. Maybe I should message him on myspace, I hope he comes back.
_________________
"Man lives on one quarter of what he eats. On the other three quarters lives his doctor."

jl53563 · Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:26 pm Post subject:

I think Bear took this way of eating to an extreme. Nothing wrong with that. However, I think most people can get the vast majority of the benefits from his way of eating by just coming reasonalby close to what he did, whch I think many of us do most of the time. Back on the old ALC thread that Bear started, I asked him once if there was anything wrong with going very low carb, but not quite to "zero" carb. His reply was that you might have a little less energy.

jager · Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:31 pm Post subject: My take on all this

After reading bear's posts and other posts on here, one thing stuck out. Some people zeroed in on a person called "Fluffybear" with such scorn and ridicule it seemed like there would be a lyncing or possibly Fluffybear might get burned at the stake and then EATEN by the most ardent carnivores. I have been on this board for awhile, although I seldem post anymore because of time constraints, but I have seen people here go from following Bear's mantra of "all vegetables are poison" and condeming those, like Fluffybear who eats them to coming almost full-circle to "what's wrong with eating vegetables." What gives folks?
_________________
If butter scares you, use cream--Julia Child

Avalon · Top Carnivore Joined: 29 Nov 2006 Posts: 3326

I just tried doing a search for Fluffybear and couldn't find any posts Roll Eyes

Is it me?

ReddyMcMeaty · The Boss Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 5776

oh she had a different name on here... skinnydipper but most of her posts can be found at the active low carb forums under fluffybear. Basically she was a bitch who was only posting to make trouble and be a pain in the ass, not actually debate or discuss vegetable vs. no. She seemed to have a hand in getting people who were supportive of not eating vegetables banned from the low carb forums as well
_________________
"Man lives on one quarter of what he eats. On the other three quarters lives his doctor."

LOOPS · Top Cat Joined: 31 May 2006 Posts: 457 Location: CHILE

Well I've had quite good experiences with mostly animal products and supplements - although I'll never be Bear-style extreme. I think the main thing I got from his lecturing is that it is still possible to be alive and kicking without eating oranges or plants etc.

But for me my lifestyle will not permit me to do any kind of eating strategy without supplements, especially magnesium. It always amazes me how one might get enough from meat unless you eat shit loads of fish, or live somewhere where there is a ridiculously high amount in the water (Russia perhaps). Still, maybe it is possible.

It seems that the main point about zero carb is the lack of insulin being pumped round to mess up everything else, but I still don't really understand how a few leaves of lettuce are really going to make all hell break loose. If bear ate a lettuce, would he get ill?

Loops

jl53563 · Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:05 pm Post subject:

phoenix7 · Hunter Joined: 23 May 2007 Posts: 212

Avalon · Top Carnivore Joined: 29 Nov 2006 Posts: 3326

See, actually, that was a year ago and we are much stricter now. Now you must live up to The Bear's Ideals. Sorry Yup

or else

What?

phoenix7 · Hunter Joined: 23 May 2007 Posts: 212

I'll give it my best shot Wink

, how about you? Grin

adwred · Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 12:50 pm Post subject:

Avalon, if that's true, you'll be getting a right smashing any second now. Where's my mallet? Someone get me my mallet.
_________________
I'm a vegetable-eater by proxy. I make sure to get 5-10 servings of herbivore per day.

barb0324 · Guest

Here Red, I'll hold her for you Yup

....

ReddyMcMeaty · The Boss Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 5776

(looking closely) Barb is that a mallet or a leather riding crop?
_________________
"Man lives on one quarter of what he eats. On the other three quarters lives his doctor."

adwred · Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:41 pm Post subject:

_________________
I'm a vegetable-eater by proxy. I make sure to get 5-10 servings of herbivore per day.

barb0324 · Guest

... you two know too much about me, it seems .. Embarassed

wifezilla · Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:22 pm Post subject:

Avalon · Top Carnivore Joined: 29 Nov 2006 Posts: 3326

Meg wrote:

sydneynelson · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:54 pm Post subject:

I remember fluffybear, too. She is something else, that's for sure. I agree, she was just a lonely woman with too much time on her hands. Probably one of those people that wouldn't dare confront someone in "real" life, so they take out all their agression on people on the Internet. I think I read a post from her a couple weeks ago, saying she is doing Medifast now. Roll Eyes

wifezilla · Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:24 pm Post subject:

Seriously? I swear...that woman changes plans more than I change hair color!
_________________
http://wifezillasway.blogspot.com

phoenix7 · Hunter Joined: 23 May 2007 Posts: 212

Jeff726 · Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:38 pm Post subject:

Avalon don't feel alone on this forum like me. I am likely the only conservative Christian on here. Grin

Read Romans 14 for something that gives me good perspective on the very subject of the way one lives.

meatISawesome369 · Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:24 am Post subject:

Jeff, your not the only Christian. But you may be the only conservative Christian. I'm a libertarian Christian,lol. I'm somewhat of a conservative though: conserving liberty that is.

Stephen