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Round Table Discussion of Keto/Low Carb Diets

 
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TidalPool
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 11:43 pm    Post subject: Round Table Discussion of Keto/Low Carb Diets  Reply with quote

Part 1:
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1138762

Part 2:
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1141913

Jessica
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Danny John
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for posting that...the "Dan John" character is suspect, though...

My athletes thrive on real low levels of carbs, but it is hard to convince the mom who does aerobics, fasting and lipo that there is a better way...
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ReddyMcMeaty
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danny John do you have any insight or experience with HIIT performance and very low carb? The unscientific consensus here seems to be that once you've adapted to the diet, exercise is not impaired EXCEPT when it comes to repeated high intensity intervals (like sprints, not weight training), in which case the intensity and endurance is impaired. The problem is that no one here seems to participate in this except me and I haven't stayed at VLC levels for long enough any time in the last 2 years to really evaluate it properly. Actually there is another member who is very into tennis and she had some real issues with performance and vlc. Anyway.. you've seen much more than we have, can you tell us anything??
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Danny John
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's funny, because it hasn't been "studied" very much, yet previous to 1970, the low carb concepts dominated sports. Dr. Tom Fahey would be the guy to ask about this...but a few observations.

I found that I did reallly well in a low/no carb environment as a strength and power athlete. In fact, my numbers (distance, weights) were unchanged or better. Athletes that go to paleodiets often immediately improve in bodyfat levels (it goes down) and the ability to "make" muscle, it seems.

I found the Tabata ideas to be very helpful (I wrote an article about this at t-nation), but longer, bigger interval workouts are outside of what I know. I always think about our 'historic' dimension here. I could imagine fighting a bear for a few minutes then running away. But, I can't imagine running up to a bear and running away repeatedly for twenty minutes.

So...maybe...if you are struggling with the diet and performance, look at the workout or sport first. It might simply not fit with what your goals are...

If fat loss is a goal and you are losing fat with the food choices, why do something like intervals? I am firmly convinced that weights are a far better choice for increasing muscle mass...which many argue contributes to further fat loss.

Is this on the right track to your question?
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ReddyMcMeaty
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah it is, and I'm in complete agreement with doing exercise to match goals. It is only that I just like HIIT training on the stairs...it's really fun and probably the most enjoyable workout I would do outside of sports like ultimate frisbee or soccer (haven't done any since getting pregnant last year but they'd involve the same principle... repeated sprints for a long period of time) or hiking...which of course is easiest on very low carb. Kind of like those moms who just like plodding along on the treadmill while watching super makeover lipo and plstic surgery television shows ;)
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Danny John
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HIIT on stairs might be a nice study. I hate indoor training, so it might be interesting to see how you adapt to doing "real" sprints with either running, inline skating or bikes or whatever. Maybe...just maybe...the treadmill is so anti-real (just made that up...) that a zerocarb environment rebels against the machine/air conditioning/television....
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ReddyMcMeaty
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well I really have to keep it up for a long enough period of time to be able to tell, and since another pregnancy is looming it's not a fair time to evaluate, though I will keep up the HIIT. So far I've noticed that my initial strength and power is great, but by the time I've reached the top (3 flights) I feel more fatigued than I do when there are carbs involved, with lightheadedness and a need to sit down to collect myself. There is just less "zip" and pep at the end of, and in between intervals. Strength training is not negatively affected though.
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LOOPS
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right -

finally found this thread - was looking for awhile in the wrong place!

So I definitely haven't become keto-adapted after months and months of low-carb / very low carb. At least not for tennis training. Anything else is fine - long-distance running, swimming, even more leisurely tennis playing with friends - but the hardcore training with lots and lots of sprinting I'm still not doing very well at.

It seems that one of the main problems is my muscles need longer to recover from a session - but as I train most days I don't give them long enough. This was never a problem on higher carb (although I had other health problems which is why I'm not giving up yet). I could train for longer and although I felt the slight strain on my muscles whilst training I could cope and felt good.

This last week has been a mix of good and very bad. I reintroduced a banana before training for 2 days and at first it seemed to help but then I was back at square one and actually felt a little worse. Don't know what's going on there.

My final day of training on Friday was the worst. We went straight into sprinting for balls at either end of the court repeatedly. I was out of breath and my legs were acheing badly. In the end I had to just ask for a few moments to gain my strength back. It was really pitiful!

I felt quite depressed afterwards because I really want VLC to work, and thought that maybe a few extra carbs (banana) would help enough with the sprinting without pushing me out of ketosis to much (which helps with everything else). But it didn't help much in the end!

Right now I'm not enjoying the more intense training sessions which I used to, but I DO have better concentration overall on VLC and can do lesser intensity training quite easily.

Tennis isn't exactly a natural sport and it can be very demanding on muscles. I would think football (soccer) would be similarly demanding regarding repeated 'fast' energy.

My trainer is a bit perplexed at my lack of endurance to say the least - I haven't really told him what I'm doing because he won't understand - Chileans have no concept of low carb and I think he believes you need carbs, protein and fat to perform well.

I will keep trying though as the other benefits I have from VLC still outweigh the problems with my tennis.

Loops
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Carolyn
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you train less often and give your muscles a chance to recover?
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bubbaM
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if there truly is a need for some type of carbohydrate when doing that type of exercise. The questions might be which is the best one, how much, when, etc... The one that I would try first is one that is almost an unmentionable on this forum, but I'll go ahead and mention it anyway. Aajonus Vonderplanitz says that unheated honey is good for you for more than one reason. If you have some with your protein meals before exercise it might help combustion. You might be running out of the spark that you need to keep things burning correctly. Another way might be to make an electrolyte drink with it and add some minerals from whatever you might think is the best choice for that, be it ionic minerals, mineral water, or Himalayan Crystal salt. The amount of carbs that you would get with each sip wouldn't be enough to overload your blood stream or stress your pancreas, but would perhaps give you the spark for burn that is needed. I have started including it back in my diet because, although some people consider it in the same category as sugar, I find that if I use it correctly it doesn't exacerbate sugar problems and is pulling me out of the dull, fatigued state that I've been in since starting the VLC way of eating.

The message attached to the tea bag of the tea I'm now drinking says: "Ten people, ten opinions." This is just mine.

Bubba
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LOOPS
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks -

this coming week I will be training less and practising with some friends instead - they don't care if I don't run that much! Hopefully it'll be more fun.

The honey is an interesting idea. I think I tried that at one point and didn't like the results but I'll have another go. I think it still never felt like anywhere near enough. I have an inkling that the only way anything is going to be enough is to fill up the glycogen stores after tennis - that would be a lot of carbohydrate for me though and I don't think I'm willing/ready to start doing that yet.

wow my muscles are STILL feeling a bit crap today after a rest all yesterday - just my legs. I think legs store the most glycogen no?

I would really like to believe Bear's words on this - that no, we don't use sugar ever and all we use is fat for every activity including sprinting, and that it is just a matter of being adapted to use fat. Well I can never seem to get right down to 0-5g carbs - does that mean I will never get adapted and will always be under-performing then?

I hope not, but dunno what to believe! I hit hard though. Harder than before. I look well!!

Loops
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ReddyMcMeaty
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not going to suggest carbing up, but a member in here - Free - has found his althletic success by using white rice. To each his own. Maybe some rice would be good for your competitive season, with zero carb the rest of the year for your health. I don't know..
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WesleyT
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOOPS wrote:
thanks -

this coming week I will be training less and practising with some friends instead - they don't care if I don't run that much! Hopefully it'll be more fun.

The honey is an interesting idea. I think I tried that at one point and didn't like the results but I'll have another go. I think it still never felt like anywhere near enough. I have an inkling that the only way anything is going to be enough is to fill up the glycogen stores after tennis - that would be a lot of carbohydrate for me though and I don't think I'm willing/ready to start doing that yet.

wow my muscles are STILL feeling a bit crap today after a rest all yesterday - just my legs. I think legs store the most glycogen no?

I would really like to believe Bear's words on this - that no, we don't use sugar ever and all we use is fat for every activity including sprinting, and that it is just a matter of being adapted to use fat. Well I can never seem to get right down to 0-5g carbs - does that mean I will never get adapted and will always be under-performing then?

I hope not, but dunno what to believe! I hit hard though. Harder than before. I look well!!

Loops

it could take up to 20 weeks to get fully adapted, how long have you been doing this?
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LOOPS
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi -

going on a year!! Actually come to think of it it IS a year - I thought it was less but I remember starting last Winter (here - now it is the end of Winter in Chile). I also have been very consistent - no carb-ups at all apart from that odd banana before tennis 4 or 5 times in the past year.

I'm getting a bit worried now, because yesterday was a shared lesson but my trainer ended up pushing ME harder rather than my partner, then last night my left thigh was really really acheing. There had been a lot of sprints - some I couldn't make either (out of breath, muscle weakness - needed a few minutes to get strength for next sprint back). This was after 3 days complete rest as well so I should have been on form.

Unfortunately the friend I was going to practice with on my 'days off' pulled a muscle in his thigh so that's out this week, and somehow I've managed to fix up another lesson for today (I know - I'm just really stubborn though! I never give up!).

So it's not really going as planned right now. My carbs, although not as low as zero, probably end up being around 20g and have been for the past year - and I seem to have energy enough for other things which must mean I'm somewhat adapted to this WOE.

Any further ideas are MOST welcome!

Loops
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WesleyT
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

do you use any sweeteners? apperantly, something sweet releases insulin
and insulin stays in your blood for 4 hours! while this happends fat release is shut down, so is ketone production from fatty acids

the carbs you eat, is it fruit?
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LOOPS
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do use 1 tab of saccharrin in my tea - 2 cups a day mol. I had read that saccharrin is the only AS not to have this result on insulin.

My carbs come from tomatoes, red bell peppers, avocados, nuts, wine, cream.

I wonder if the sweetener is affecting me then? I don't have much of it though.

Loops

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