elenarose
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Wasting energyIf a very low/zero carb diet is so wasteful in terms of energy that it allows a person to loose weight despite excess calories (Jeff i'm looking at you  ) then I don't understand how that's good for us in the long term? Why not just give the carbs the body needs? Isn't that extra stress?
Zero carbers love talking about how the body needs no carbs to function, but the body requires no saturated fat to function either (i'm not saying it's optimal) so surely meeting the body's energy requirements so it doesn't have to go out of it's way to make either itself is better? Unless you're trying to loose weight.
I get my carbs from starch now because it's much less stressful on the liver than say fruit sugar. I guess i'm just agreeing with optimal diet theories, except carb requirements are actually a bit higher than Kwasniewski recommends I believe because he's just trying to keep people out of ketosis not meeting carb demands.
So I find it hard to understand how low carb or high carb is optimal, rather a balanced level of fat and carbs is better? I know I feel much better eating a good deal of both.
Thoughts?
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adwred
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Personally, I think a healthy body should be able to tolerate a base level of carbs (the amount, say, called for in Optimal Nutrition) as long as your fat intake is high enough. Some bodies need a bit of healing before they can tolerate that level of carbohydrate without putting on weight, due to insulin resistance and years of abusing carbs. The high fat content of ON really does help to blunt that insulin response, though, so if you are going to eat a base level of carbs, ON is, without a doubt, the way to do it. I think if you're having 'Optimal' levels of fat, then you're fine to have a bit of carb (up to 50 g per day). Without all that protective fat, I would not recommend it, though - your ratios will be all buggered up and you'd be putting yourself at risk for disease.
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jl53563
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Who, me???
Ok. Zero carb is only wasteful in terms of energy if one is overconsuming energy. I pretty cool trick, I'd say. But if a person is consuming about what their body needs, there will not be wasted energy.
There is no need for dietary carbs. The body can make all the glucose it needs from gluconeogenesis. This seems beneficial to me in that the body can make glucose as it is needed and where it is needed. No danger of overconsuming carbs. Not to mention the insulin that comes along with ingesting carbs.
Many of us, by the time we have reached adulthood have become insulin resistant and have damaged our metabolism so much that eating more than a minimal amount of carbs can cause problems. I have a feeling that if people at only whole, natural foods from early childhood on, the vast majority would be able to eat lots of fruits and veggies and such without problems. It's only because many of us have become so sensitve to carbs that it is best to leave them alone altogether.
As an added bonus, it is very difficult to gain bodyfat on a zero carb diet. For the vast majority, I just don't see a downside.
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elenarose
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| Quote: | | Ok. Zero carb is only wasteful in terms of energy if one is overconsuming energy. I pretty cool trick, I'd say. But if a person is consuming about what their body needs, there will not be wasted energy. |
Oh okay that makes sense. 
Maybe i'm going back to newbie steps, but I'm not sure I understand the dangers of carbs or overconsuming carbs especially if they are blunted with fat and protein. I need to go back to the original bear essay I guess. I just look at the Japanese who eat a 76% carb pretty high glycemic diet who are very thin and live a long life and get confused. In theory it should work the other way as well, the body can make all the saturated fat it needs from carbs.
I understand with insulin resistance however, low carbing is definitely best, but that's because of carb abuse...what about for people who have not had weight problems, if the body needs carbs then why not supply them? Is it the insulin? But a low glycemic diet would blunt insulin really... I eat carbs but I don't get hungry, which is a real pain!
Low carb/zero carb is definitely good for you! But i'm just trying to understand why supplying the body's carb requirements through the diet is wrong.
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adwred
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I don't think it is wrong, personally. I do think that if you're lucky enough to not have a damaged metabolism that you could live fine and healthfully supplying a base level of carbs from diet. Unfortunately, it means that you have to count how many carbs you're eating, as the human appetite can't necessarily be trusted to demand an appropriate level of carbs (since they seem to have a self-propagating effect on your carb-appetite). Zero-carb means ad lib eating, which is very convenient. Also, there are so few carb foods that are really appropriate for human consumption... rice... limited amounts of potato... a peeled pear or two. Maybe some carbs from occasional liver and milk. Maybe also some in the form of blood in a black pud. That's about it.
And as for the Japanese, Dr. Kwasniewski believes the Japanese diet is second only to his and far superior to the SAD. But that's because they also don't practice a mixed diet. It's very low fat. But his diet is superior, as is proven in many studies.
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jl53563
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I'm sure a lot of people could eat some carbs and be ok. But many people are addicted to carbs. It is difficult if not impossible for them to eat just a few carbs, then stop. It's like giving an alcoholic one drink, then telling them "no more". It ain't gonna happen.
| Quote: | | Maybe i'm going back to newbie steps, but I'm not sure I understand the dangers of carbs or overconsuming carbs especially if they are blunted with fat and protein |
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Carbs, fat, and protein. That's how I got fat. 
| Quote: | | I understand with insulin resistance however, low carbing is definitely best, but that's because of carb abuse...what about for people who have not had weight problems |
In the U.S. at least, 2/3 of the population is overweight. If you count only adults, I'm sure it would be over 70%. I think just about everybody will become insulin resistant if given enough time. Some people get there quicker than others.
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Scout Finch
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I agree with everything jeff and red mentioned. Some of us who were overweight in the past just can't eat carbs in the same way without it being like a runaway train. That's true for me. I did great on Atkins for 7 years before doing zero. There is something about a high-fat diet for me that blunts the carb cravings, and that's something I need. Otherwise, it'll just get away from me, like it did every single time I tried to do a low fat diet to lose weight. I couldn't stay on it.
Another point is that I'm coming around to the belief that insulin is what's causing all of our problems, including stuff like inflammation and contributions to heart disease - all of it. Insulin is such a powerful hormone, and we really need more study of low-carb eaters and heart disease and insulin responses, stuff like that.
That's not to say that a diet that includes fruits and veggies would necessarily be bad for you, because I guess there is some credence to fiber blunting the insulin response, which is ultimately what you want. (I have other issues with fiber, so I try to avoid it.) Although I've heard anecdotally that this is not necessarily the case when some people eat only fruits and veggies - there is still an insulin-blood sugar response that can get away from them and cause binge-eating or continuous carb eating. This probably gets back to damaged metabolisms and life-long carby diets in general, some people have an inability to handle even moderate amounts of so-called "healthy" carbs. I think I'm one of those people.
Ultimately, for me anyway, it's about keeping a tight control on insulin. I don't know when the researchers are going to figure out that insulin is really at the bottom of many of our problems, but they will sooner or later. (I hope.)
Interesting discussion.
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jl53563
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Scout, thanks for your input. Yes, I find this a very interesting discussion.
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ReddyMcMeaty
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| jl53563 wrote: | | Scout, thanks for your input... |
Yeah...
And your avatar is beautiful btw. It's also nice to see a face to the name.
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jl53563
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Well, its seems I wasted even more energy this past week. I just finished my second experiement. I now weigh 162. I lost 2 pounds! Same number of calories as with the high fat/lower protein experiment, but this time I had much more protein. And, I drank 2 glasses of dry red wine every night. I averaged 4138 calories per day. This should be a surplus of about 1300 calories per day. For the week, I "should" have gained about 2.5 pounds. My average macronutrient breakdown looks something like this:
65% fat
26% protein
8% alcohol
1% carb
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koch900
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| Quote: | | I just look at the Japanese who eat a 76% carb pretty high glycemic diet who are very thin and live a long life and get confused. |
Wait a minute ... aren't high-carb Asian populations notorious for getting stomach cancer?
I really do believe that high-carb is unnatural for the human digestive tract. It seems plausible that our bodies are designed for generous amounts of meat and fat, given the acidity of the stomach and the function of the gall bladder. Simple carbs (white rice) are fully digestible, but I feel that they screw with the ph of the stomach so much that this leads to problems eventually.
Also, consider how the Japanese eat. Think of the rice cookers with rice available all day long for snacking. Snacking is necessary on high-carb to keep blood sugar balanced, which is a huge drawback to me. Not to mention the excess glucose from carbs affecting mood and behavior. When I was high-carb, the surplus glucose made me think too much and experience anxiety!
In addition, low-glycemic veggie and fruits (which many say are the best carbs to eat) simply dragged on the low feeling that comes with carbs, while simple carbs spiked insulin and left me feeling very low afterwards for a while. I never would feel blanced unless I was without carby food for a while (like 6 hours) or actually eating a carby meal. On low-carb, my whole body/mind feels balanced and happy througout the day, when eating ... always! Blood sugar is stable, and so am I.
Who knows? Maybe traditional high-carb cultures would be better off on low-carb?
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Avalon
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adwred wrote:
| Quote: | | Zero-carb means ad lib eating, which is very convenient. |
This is a great point! And to be able to eat when you want no worries of weight gain is terrific. On top of that you might have to be reminded to eat, I hear.
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Scout Finch
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| Avalon wrote: | adwred wrote:
| Quote: | | Zero-carb means ad lib eating, which is very convenient. |
This is a great point! And to be able to eat when you want no worries of weight gain is terrific. On top of that you might have to be reminded to eat, I hear. |
After 2 years of zero carb, it's still true for me that I can go for an entire day or more without eating and not be hungry. I think my stress level may also have to do with this, though, although clearly something physiologic is going on. I noticed during high-stress periods with my work (generally if I have to travel for work, which I do fairly often), I will go an entire day without food, being away from food, and I will be "hungry" but I won't be climbing the walls and feeling like I need to gnaw on the leg of the guy sitting next to me on the plane. That phenomenon is related to my blood sugar being bottomed out, so to speak, so I don't have cravings and I don't feel the immediate need to eat, but I still feel a hunger sensation.
So I continue to have "variable" states going for long periods without food. But it still occurs that I can go all day and not eat anything and be fine. What this diet has done to my blood sugar, to me, is the most important thing. Keeping it low and steady has done wonders for me physically.
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Scout Finch
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| Quote: | | I just finished my second experiement. I now weigh 162. I lost 2 pounds! |
I actually wouldn't mind trying an "experiment" where I eat only steak for 2 weeks or so and see how that goes. I may have reported this already, but when I first started zero carb, for about the first year I had to take "beef holidays" because I couldn't sleep for a few days if I ate a lot of beef. I substituted chicken, pork, or fish in for beef a couple of days a week, and I would get right back to my normal sleep schedule. That phenomenon has tapered off and doesn't seem to be a problem any more.
So I wanted to try eating nothing but beef for a couple of weeks and see if it affects my moods, my physiology - anything. Maybe I'm just looking to inject something different into my routine. I don't know. I don't need to lose any weight, so it would be an experiment to effect maybe my exercise levels, sleeping patterns, energy levels, feeling of well-being - anything.
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Avalon
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I'd like to do the opposite- meat wise. I'd like to go zero-carb, but no beef, pork or chicken. Could this be done with just eggs and fish?
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BlackLabelSimian
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| Avalon wrote: | | I'd like to do the opposite- meat wise. I'd like to go zero-carb, but no beef, pork or chicken. Could this be done with just eggs and fish? |
I don't see why not. There's certainly a wide enough variety of seafood to choose from that I would think could be considered good sources of protein and fat. Factor in the eggs as well and it would seem like a decent combo to me.
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regex_1
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Although I have been low carb on and off for awhile, I have been zero carbs for about two weeks now and have had nothing but steak and eggs. I though that I had a lot of energy on low carb, but damn do I have a lot on Zero.
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adwred
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| Avalon wrote: | | I'd like to do the opposite- meat wise. I'd like to go zero-carb, but no beef, pork or chicken. Could this be done with just eggs and fish? |
Kwasniewski believes egg yolks are the most superior form of protein, so I think you could do it on eggs alone, if you wanted, as long as you ate more yolks than whites. Think about it - egg yolks are the entire source of nutrition for a growing chick (like breastmilk for chickens!) - they would have to be pretty nutritionally complete. They have an excellent nutrient profile and they're also very versatile. If you eat fish (which I think is also a great idea), I would try to add in a supplementary form of fat, like butter. Fish with kerrygold melted on it? Yes please.
Actually, Avalon, you'll be very pleased to hear that I've done the best weightloss-wise when being meatless carnivorous (eggs and dairy only - no meat). The reason being, it was the diet with the least carbs and the least natural chemicals - no amines or glutamates that you'll find in meat, which stimulate hunger. Add in meat and I still do well, but stop losing weight and switch to 'maintenance' because my hunger is stronger. I feel wonderful eating mainly eggs, full-fat yogurt, cream and butter. Cheese gives me some problems, due to addictiveness (glutamates).
The effect of an all meat diet is becoming very clear to me, especially since I've been doing this meat and water challenge. No weight loss whatsoever, but feel very good and very stable. It will be an excellent maintenance plan for me.
Another reason that the 'meatless carnivorous' plan works really well for me could also be due to the fact that eggs and dairy have a much lower insulin score (i.e. meat stimulates a disproportionately large insulin response even though it has little to no effect on the glycemic index). Not sure why this phenomenon exists, but I would love to know. The insulin score of eggs and milk/cream is even lower than their glycemic score, meaning they stimulate hardly any insulin. The only data they have for yogurt is the sweetened fruity kind, so I'd reckon that unsweetened Balkan or Greek yogurt is more similar to milk/cream than to low-fat strawberry yogurt. You never know, though - the 'yogurtifying' process might have an effect on the insulin index. I do well on it, though and seem to feel very satisfied on it. It really helps my digestion, too.
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Avalon
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Hey! I missed your post here adwred!
Thank you! I have been thinking of a Lacto-Ovo-pecatarian theme. Also I've been thinking I don't care what the hell I EAT as long as the weight comes off. Then as you said- maintenance something something. I don't want to give up meat entirely. Why should my cat have all the fun!?!? Why is it okay for him, but not me? I'm begining to think maybe God, Mother Earth, whomever, will probably knock me upside the head and say, "Silly Head! You could have had a Prime rib!" 
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