SatFat group

waywardsister · SatFat group

I know there's a few of you here in this Yahoo group as well. I'm plowing through the archives, and I am getting totally confused.

Seems that they're mainly talking about a ketogenic diet for health reasons? Is that right? I am reading in fits and starts, when I have time.

The opinion seems to be that fat-adapting isn't a good thing for most people, and for weight loss keeping blood sugar in a certain range (over 80 withdips below) while NOT keto-adapted (just in ketosis) is the thing. I think I have confused myself by reading things there!

Red, anyone else...what are you gleaning from this site? I bring it up only bc they all eat very similarly to the way we do, and because I want to shed this last bit of weight and am trying to figure out the best way (for me) to do it.

adwred

I've definitely discovered that fat-adaptation is not for me, at least at this point. I was actually gaining weight on ZC because I was in Mary's coined 'no man's land' and ended up losing muscle and putting on fat and slowing down my thyroid. I'm really glad to have discovered Mary (I met her on another group that she got kicked off of for talking about the value of carbs for certain purposes and ended up following her to this new group that she created). I'm now realizing that what is probably my best solution - or the one I'm going to try now that I've put on some lean mass - is a cyclical ketogenic diet combined with weight training and well-timed carb ups to lose the fat I haven't been able to lose up to this point.

But so far, everything she's said on that group has been true for me and makes sense when I apply it to my own experience.

Trem

Does anyhone have a link to this group? I can't seem to find it Sad

Kristi31

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/SaturatedFatForHealth/

Excellent group, lots of interesting info. I've actually decided to get out of ketosis but still eat lots of fat, some protein and just enough carbs (mostly fruits) to avoid ketosis. One thing I'm already noticing after a couple of days is that some of the hives that I've had for a few weeks are now almost gone. Who would have thought? Ketosis can lead to hives. Socially, it also makes things much easier.

LOOPS

Yes it is a very interesting group and I am learning a lot. It also explains those mysterious recommendations low-carbers have about skipping cheese and nuts to get out of a stall. If you add up meat, eggs and a little added fat (butter, mayo) plus a few vegetables it comes out at around 60% fat instead of 70-80% (cream, cheese, nuts) - the ratio Mary in the group thinks at present might bring on the most weight loss for most people.

I could be totally wrong drawing that conclusion though. I also know other people who managed to break stalls by increasing fat intake, keeping carbs pretty low and reducing protein (I'm not sure I'd really want to do that though - you never know if it is lean muscle you're burning instead of fat).

Personally I previously had the best results about 6 years ago just doing meat/eggs/vegetables and at the time I was using mayo to dip the meat in - this time round I'd probably use butter. I didn't do any cheese, cream or nuts apart from occasionally, and I was about 10lbs lighter than I am now.

However.....I couldn't stick it out. I had lots of cravings for fruit. So for me a GDM equals cravings. Not sure what to do about that one.

Loops

waywardsister

I like the 'no man's land' concept - I think that's where I've been for the past few months. I'm wondering after reading through some more if a GDM isn't better for women, perhaps?

Gotta say the 'oasis' concept is mighty appealing also. I tend to do this anyway, but not in the healthiest manner ;) But it falls in line with Art DeVany's concept of intermittancy, something that has always made sense to me.

Anyone here test blood sugar? I don't - been considering doing so for awhile now just for my own curiosity.

jl53563

How come everybody but me knows what GDM means? Confused

LOOPS

Hi Jeff -

GDM means 'glucose driven metabolism' and FDM means 'fat driven metabolism'. Both those terms coined by the owner of the group- which could mean it is all total BS - but from reading through all the posts I think there is something to it.

Basically you can be in a GDM even with very low/zero carbs if your protein is high enough; also even if fat % is very high. Muscles burn glucose for energy (from gluconogenesis).

No-man's land is inbetween GDM and FDM - I think where you're using both ketones and glucose. Apparently this is where fat-gain is possible even on very low carbs if protein goes too high for needs.

In an FDM, both the muscles and the brain are burning ketones for energy (I think that's right anyway), and blood sugar level never goes above 80 or something like that.

Not very clear and possibly WRONG - I still don't understand it, but it does start to explain why I gained on close to zero carbs - and it wasn't muscle.

Elli

According to mary,

adwred

I test BG. I started when I, at first, was still ZC and trying to determine if I was FD yet. I wasn't. After 2 years of no carb! Just goes to show, it's not as easy as 'just eat meat and eggs and everything will take care of itself'.

Oh and Elli - Mary is really sensitive about nothing from the group being posted without the author's permission, since it can be taken out of context really easily, so be careful about quoting her here. Yup

copychick

because my blood sugar has been so erratic no matter what i do, my doc is implanting a device in me that will measure it every five minutes for a week. i plan to keep detailed logs and test a lot of foods and timing of meals and combination and such....will be interesting to get that clear of a picture of exactly what is going on! i figure the best plan would be to stay on my higher fat/moderate protein/low carb WOE for the first few days, then introduce the stuff i seem to have problems with like dairy and fruit and see what happens. then end of week i may have a little coffee or a piece of chocolate just to see what happens during a major crash. i can't decide if i want to throw some wine in there somewhere as i should probably not be drinking that anyway, but would be interesting to see.

Trem

Just curious, what type of carbs does Mary recomend?

LOOPS

depends if you want to be in an FDM, or a GDM!

More carbs obviously for GDM, or more protein, or both I think. The actual numbers are dependent on blood sugar analysis, but generally if you *want* to lose weight on a GDM (apparently on an FDM it is very difficult) then you want to be spiking your BG with either protein or carbs and letting it drop in between.

Not that you want to lose weight - but that is the general consensus that GDM is better at doing it.

Trem

Good info, thanks. What carb foods does she consider the best to eat?

LOOPS

I'm not entirely sure. I would think complex might be better unless you want a huge bg spike.

Viking Dan

LOOPS

yes and I'm starting to wonder with my own experiences if that is not where I've done best at as well.

So....recently keep starting out trying the 60:40 recommended and felt like CRAP. CRAP CRAP CRAP. Once fat is added back in (like, more than 60% of calories) feel GREAT. I feel even better if I add in a few carbs (like 20-30g a day) as well (only veggies and nuts for me). In fact, I feel much better the more varied my diet is (no grains or sugar though), as long as it is mostly FAT, i.e. veggies cooked in FAT, nuts, cheese, cream - I really don't have a huge craving for lean protein.

I also feel OK doing zero carbs, BUT I end up eating loads of protein due to lack of choice of something to smother with fat - AND lots of fat, but usually look pale and definitely don't fit into my skinny jeans.

No matter how I try, my body cries for more fat and for variety now. When I first started off doing Atkins I could put away a lot of protein. But I was always tired. I really do think that for me it is either lots of carbs, or lots of fat in order for my bod to work. So yeah, I think the Optimal diet is like that.

Although for me, Optimal protein recommendations are too low. I do better on slightly higher protein (like 80-90g versus 67g suggested). But then I am quite muscular.

Kristi31

I'm actually trying something else now to see what happens, try to eat more protein than usual and a little less fat...with very little carb, if any.
Similar to the Donaldson diet (i.e. Strong Medicine).

adwred

Holy shit, Kristi - how do you know anything works if you're swapping your plan every 2 days! Laugh

Kristi31

That's just me...no patience whatsoever...Eventually, I will settle on something...till' then, expect the unexpected...you just never know with me. Grin

Carnation

Honestly, though, K, you're going to be on this merry-go-round with all of your symtoms forever if you don't give any one plan enough time to see if it works.

Kristi31

I know...I know...I'm really gonna try to stick to this one...and if I don't and if I keep on changing, then I just can't complain then, it's all my fault...I'm my own guinea pig Grin

Carnation

Mmmm, guinea pig!

Kristi31

...but I have to tell you, I've come to one conclusion...that I do better with less fat (60-70% vs 75-85%), and either more carbs or protein. Carbs give me the munchies though, water retention, make me gain weight and make life more complicated and definetly not more enjoyable. So, protein it is, with less fat. I think I just overemphasized fat and recall times when I was doing better on higher protein, less fat.

Erasmus

Carnation

Cavey? I always thought is was somthing like kooey? Anyhow, tasty little critter, all sorts of succulent little bits, and a surprising amount of meat.

LOOPS

I'm the exact opposite.

I have completely failed at everything I've tried to do with low/zero carbing. The only way I feel good is to eat a lot of fat, including dairy - lots of cheese and cream. But, I just had a look at some photos of me in the same clothing comparing now to 2 years ago and I have definitely put on weight around my thighs, hips and middle. So there! In fact, I've actually lost a little of the weight I put on since coming OFF of zero carb.

And if you don't believe me - I have a pair of 'test' jeans which are quite tight. Well they got TIGHTER zero carbing - prolly due to all the calories from cheese etc and maybe too much protien. It was extremely discouraging.

They have become slightly looser again but I am still 5 kilos above my weight 2 years ago.

It makes me mad when people go on and on about how you can eat all the calories you like and not gain on zero carb or very low carb BUT I CAN AND DID!

I have absolutely no idea what to do now. It's pretty miserable when the one and only thing that SHOULD shift the weight doesn't.

If I try to eat more protein and less fat I get cold and start feeling like snacking on things.

I really need to find an answer!!!

Sorry to moan on - i really needed to have a moan.

Loops

Carnation

It's not moaning. I think a lot of people around here are experiencing a similar sort of frustration right now.

Kristi31

You can moan all you want... Comfort

I totally understand how you feel.

LOOPS

Thanks Carnation -

it's just so weird that when I started out low-carbing I got down to my goal pretty fast (well almost my goal). Then it was gradually all down-hill from there. I never had cheats or anything - was pretty happy with the way I was eating and felt ok. But then started putting on weight. Grrrrrr. Wish I was a bloke, then I probably wouldn't have this problem.

Thanks for listening everybody!

Loops

Carnation

Hearing that always makes me think of the "golden shot" theory with the atkins crowd.

Elli

Trem

I actually gained weight on Zero-carb also - probably because I ate more. I'm really starting to believe Anthony Colpo when he says weight loss is 'Calories In = Calories out' and to not believe the Metabolic Advantage garbage.

Carnation

opticon107

adwred

Opticon, I hate to break it to ya, but that was offensive and rather insensitive, considering what Loops has just said about feeling hopeless and the fact that you're in a forum full of former (and some still currently) fat people who have 'manned it up' like crazy. She's looking for help, here, not a speech about the metabolic advantage being bullshit.

I think the obvious answer here is that no one thing will work for everyone. Look at Kristi - she has the exact opposite reaction to high fat that Loops does. Look at Jeff - he's eaten thousands of calories a day with all sorts of ratios and never gains an ounce.

Yes, there's definitely a metabolic advantage to low-carb, but it's not a situation of limitless calories or being able to binge on 5000 calories a day with impunity. It's like 200 or 300 calories, according to Eades. Not huge, but still significant for some, obviously. I have a feeling it also varies depending on the person and even on the hormonal environment in that person.

Loops, I can totally feel your pain about not being able to find a solution. I never in a million years thought I'd be eating carbs to put on LM! I have put some fat on, but only a bit and it seems like that's par for the course for someone with an 'anabolic' metabolism, like me. Wink

I'm hoping it comes off again now that I'm 'cutting', as they say.

LOOPS

hey Red I read that you managed to gain 15 lbs of LM from exercising + more carbs?!! WTG!!

Don't wory - I'm not offended Opticon - and, I haven't put on HEAPS - just, well, you know, I'm always wondering if this kind of weight gain is to continue!!

I'm still learning, and, mentally, from everything I've learnt recently, it would seem that more protein + carbs and slightly less fat might get me back down to being slim.

HOWEVER, amazingly so, the difference between 75% fat and 60% is like night and day for my body in its present state! It really starts to GROAN and GRUMBLE as soon as anything vaguely lean comes along. It makes me laugh when I read high fat as being 60% - although the laugh's on me because after all my efforts to become fat adapted I might well have done it and now am stuck!!

Ok, now for something very positive because stock needs to be taken and there HAVE been positive things for me - I am still purge/binge free, I still have pretty good skin health compared to before (acne has now completely gone - crops up whilst travelling but only a tiny bit) - NO ECZEMA whatsoever, even with dairy eating. I also have (most of) my mental health in tact compared with my siblings (welcome to a bipolar family) and am fairly sharp; also life (when I'm eating fat) doesn't really revolve around food so much.

It's not so bad - but I would still like to know what is going on with me.

As this is turning into an essay type length thing - I would also like to say that the initial reactions I had from re-introducing vegetables are gone (I had a tiny patch of eczema appear after eating green beans for the first time in ages).

Loopd

opticon107

adwred

Awesome!

I wonder if you can ease yourself out of a FDM? I mean, in order to lose the fat. You might feel kind of sluggish at first, but you might get the results you're looking for. Unless of course, you feel like now you're properly in a FDM and not in no man's land, you won't continue to gain weight and can become happy with this new slightly plumper figure?

Elli

Oh dear, Loops. My desire for fat is unbelievable too. I am trying to eat higher protein, lower fat meals and I'm downright miserable. I usually make compound butter mixes to deep (smother, actually) my meats in, and it's the butter part that I enjoy about my meal. Whenever I read about optimal diet, I drool over their menu. Too bad that I can't transit into FDM with my current body state.

Elli

OK. I am right now eating two types of raw beef: short rib and flank. And short rib tastes better. Possibly because it's fattier? Since I like my butter way too much, maybe I should go back to having more white fish and shrimps. Less guilty of smothering them with fat Laugh

I just don't get it. Many people report having a protein-rich meal satisfying, but it got to be a fat-rich meal for me to be happy. Maybe it's all in my head..

adwred

No, I think it's different strokes for different folks. I don't find lean protein very filling. I can eat loads of it and not feel satisfied - just sort of bloated. I either have to have carbs or fat (or both) with protein in order to feel right. Yup

Elli

I agree with you. I had tried drinking pure whey protein drink, which didn't do much in terms of filling me up. But if I add some fat to it, that's a whole different story.

I think the ratio issue really depends on individuals. Someone in low-carb forum eats 50% protein and she's happy that way, whereas such menu would make me downright sick. In addition, I'm one of those who never get stomach discomfort no matter how much fat I eat in one sitting, however, I know many who gets unpleasant symptoms and frequent visits to the washroom if they go overboard with fat. No one size fit all, eh?

ReddyMcMeaty

LOOPS

Hmm -

yes I totally agree - the Optimal Diet would be right up my street - but I doubt it would shift any of my body fat now I seem to be well adapted to a high fat diet.

Every time I go for higher protein I get all these doubts in my head - like, is this going to backfire on me? And lots of people say that low-carb should be high fat or I might lose my hair kind of thing! I really want to keep my hair!

Elli I feel quite miserable too as I don't find protein foods very enticing unless they are coupled with a lot of fat.

What I find perplexing is you hear these stories of people on the Optimal Diet who are a 'size 4' - wow - I mean, that is slim (well, I guess if you are very short and small boned it's normal). Obviously what would be more educating is knowing the average body fat percentage. I know Hyperlipid (not sure of his real name) has a low bf% but he is a man. I would like to know women's bf. Maybe I'll ask.

So Elli I am totally with you on this - I will be trying to eat more protein this AM instead of my usual cups of tea with lots of cream and small portion of eggs in lots of butter. Green tea with eggs and ham omelette. How's that for more protein?

Oops - why is there a cup of tea with cream sitting next to me? See what I mean? The subconscious is a powerful force! Ok, green tea after this cup.

I can do this!

Red I would stay in an FDM if that is where I am (must get around to buying a BG monitor one of these days) but I would like to take a shot first at the GDM. If I can't transition back then I guess I'll go right to the Optimal style of things for good. If cutting down on the fat backfires (i.e. more weight gain or nothing changing at all apart from me feeling unsatisfied with the food) then at least I know it wasn't the fat content of my diet that was the problem!

Loops

Elli

If you're looking for some recipes that's higher protein and lower in fat, I guess lots of recipes from low carber forum might come in handy. At least many of them know how to make the dishes interesting with spices and herbs though you know they can't compare to good old fat Laugh

This is just my speculation, but Mary from SatFat group said that her body composition changed when she entered FDM. She has lots of LM but plenty of body fat too. However, they are nicely distributed so that she has flat belly with feminine curves. And I also read about a specific region in Europe where they prodominantly eat duck and geese and all the fat from those birds. Women from that region is famous for their hourglass shape body; very small waist with volumous thighs and upper body. I'm not sure what you've experienced goes along this, however, it is possible from the evolutionary point that there's more advantage for women to have such a body type for child birth and so on.

Well, the problem is that we might not want such a body type. Especially you and I have gone through bulimic ages where we had such a distorted body image. There are those latina ladies who tap their womanly body and yells 'I love my curves!', whichi is great because they're beautiful that way. But I probably want to stick to more toned and slim figure for myself Embarassed

I believe that the paleo ansestors ate diet very rich in fat and that there are many studies reporting that it was from eating fats from different sources including marine animals that allowed us to have bigger brain and thus evolve. You know that bodybuilders eat very unnatural kinds of diet to manipulate their hormones and do all sorts of kinds of dietary tricks to get their body fat percentage down. It's especially harder for women bodybuilders. Assuming that high-fat eating is natural diet for humans, that certainly doesn't really seem to naturally bring the kind of body type the body builders are looking for.

I'm trying to be positive here. This is my thinking..

1. Eat lots of fat -> Body composition may change and possibly few pounds above where I want to be. But once the weight stablizes, there won't be any gaining even if I eat lot more.

2. Eat lots of protein and less fat -> More LM and possibly less body fat too. Harder to maintain because it's not the most natural kind of diet for human.

3. Eat lost of carbs -> Continuously gain Laugh

LOOPS. I know. It's hard especially when we considered zero-carbing as the solution to everything. But even if it doesn't bring 100% of what we've been expecting, it's better than #3 and at least we can enjoy and feel good about what we're eating without being 300 pounds, right?

I'm with you on this journey, so hang on. Let's find something together Happy

adwred

OK, I'm going to bring out the old faithful Failsafe argument (don't hate me) but keep in mind that salicylates and the phenols in tea stimulate an insulin response, big time. As do free glutamates, which are plentiful in cheese and cured meats. Just something to keep in mind!

Lauren

I've been reading this forum for a while but this is my first post. I'm particularly interested in this thread because:

As a long time bulimic, my symptoms have lessened as I've gotten older. Before LC, I ate a low calorie, low protein diet and maintained my weight fairly well but the constant hunger would lead me to occasional binges when I just couldn't take it anymore.

Since LC, I do not binge and have had other great benefits like sleeping through the night, sense of well being, hair no longer falls out, cleaner teeth, less hunger, etc.

The down side is that I gained a few pounds which in light of the benefits, I probably shouldn't worry about but I do. I too hoped ZC would give me the lean thin body I desire. Someone on another forum assures it but that is not my experience and from this thread, I can see that I'm not alone.

One of my questions is what is reasonable to expect? On the other forum, people seem to have a lot of weight to lose. I am not overweight (just not skinny like I wanna be) and I'm wondering if my bulimic brain is just out to lunch? If you don't mind me asking, how do others on this board feel about this. Could they be trying to get too skinny or is it reasonable to expect to maintain thinness on a VLC diet?

My other question is about GDM and FDM. My understanding is that human beings run on both fat and glucose. If you eat a ZC diet, your body will make the minimal glucose that you need through glucogenesis (sp?). If you eat a mixed diet, you will still burn fat sometimes (like at night). Can anyone explain why Mary says you can be one or the other?

Thanks.

adwred

Lauren, the best way to answer this question is to have you join the satfat group. Yup

There are literally hundreds of posts on just that one issue. It's really hard to try to nail down a really quick and simple answer for you, beyond just saying that the brain and muscles are either adapted to glucose, or they're adapted to ketones and can't shift easily between the two. That's why people tend to feel really lethargic when they're trying to adapt from one to the other.

LOOPS

well,

so far today I haven't been feeling lethargic but hungry. I ate the omelette for breakfast - hmm - well that held me for about 2 hours, then I was thinking about food again. I just ate quite a lot of chicken and am still hungry. My body is going WTH?

adwred

Are you eating some carbs, too? I don't recommend lean protein on a ZC diet - you need to either have some carbs or fat for energy, as protein isn't an energy food.

LOOPS

No not yet -

I guess my second lunch Laugh

will involve vegetables.

Gawd this is getting complicated!

adwred

You'll need to bring your carb intake to at least 50 g a day to stay out of ketosis. Ketosis + low fat = bad. It means that you'll be in rabbit starvation. You should make sure you're having some starchy veg or some carby dairy or something, as leafy or watery veg just won't get you there.

I know - it is complicated!

LOOPS

Yeah -

I think that's what happened to me the last time I did Atkins the first time round. Well it wasn't full blown rabbit starvation or I would have died! But I used to fall off the ol wagon every now and then - used to have a margerita at the weekends. I just really didn't eat that much fat - no cream, cheese or nuts - just quite a bit of mayo sometimes (yech).

I tell ya! This is hard! I love low-carbing but I've never been huge on meat meat meat - it's always been fat fat fat for me!

We'll see how I go. The brie is staring at me from inside the fridge. I have a ton of green beans fried up in butter so I might have to go for those with a big hunk of meat.

Loops

ReddyMcMeaty

Lauren, I think one of the "problems" is that an adequate an appropriate diet isn't going to make many of us "skinny" the way we want to be unless that is our natural state, genetically, and we haven't already been messed up by screwed nutrition in our lives. In order to get underfat (meaning, with less bodyfat than is actually optimally healthy and desirable for our body) you - maybe not YOU because I don't know your body - are going to have to be uncomfortable and eat a deficient diet. They're vanity pounds.

waywardsister

Drive-by post...

I would like to try Optimal Diet ratios to shed my last vanity pounds - basically get rid of the visible excess fat. My concern is that I don't want to be FDM, and it seems to me that OD would result in a transition to an FDM?

Maybe I'll just eat meat for a while!

Just to mention that I don't have any problems with increased hunger etc on higher carbs, or any other reactions, so I think my metabolism is pretty good. Nothing I'm trying to heal up, just wanna shed fat. Apparently GDM is better for this (according to Mary). I think I've been sitting in NML bc my fat is generally 65% and carbs are not low enough to enter an FDM. If I'm understanding this properly, that is.

adwred

Nah, you're probably not in NML. If you were, you'd know it - you'd probably be lacking energy, not have any 'juice' to work out, whatsoever and be gaining fat, slowly. You're probably still in a GDM. Yup

LOOPS

Optimal recommends 2.5g fat for each g of protein for weightloss (and 0.5-0.8g carb per g of protein).

Will this work?

I'm tempted to try to hit these ratios and see.....As I really don't think doing just 60%fat is going to be at all viable for me as it makes me feel like crap.

One of the main problems I see with the Optimal diet is trying to restrict protein to 1g/kilo of bodyweight - it seems very low, even with all the fat.

Loops

adwred

It didn't work for me. Sad

Carnation

Too...many...acronyms... Bonkers

Elli

LOOPS, unlike what I said, I haven't really twicked much of my macronutrients ratio that much. I crave fat too much. So be my wonderful mentor and please do give us some follow-ups on your energy level, post-meal satiety, and hunger control etc.

The thing is that the more I think about it, high-fat eating seems to be the most natural way of eating. In terms of evolution and physiology, what should work the best for our body is the one that does the least harm. With high-protein eating, we might be able to manipulate our BF or LM, but in a way that is lot more taxing to the body. In short, we are the one dictaing our body. It may let people stay little slimmer, but maybe not healthier. Something to consider Confused

jl53563

ReddyMcMeaty

Trem

waywardsister

ReddyMcMeaty

When I was at my fittest 150-155 (about 20-23 percent bodyfat) seemed to be what it wanted to be at, and not under. I wanted then, and still do now to be about 17 percent.... and it's all about vanity. Of course the leaner you are, the healthier society perceives you as well.

waywardsister

adwred

I've never been able to achieve under 29% bodyfat on any diet, including zc. That seems a tad high, to me.

Yes, I'm following the oasis meals, etc. I had a doosey last night. Shock

But I also did a one-hour pole dancing class which absolutely did not make up for it, yet is allowing me to feel justified. Yup

nola · sat fat group

Hi

I have got heaps from the saturated fat group; it has answered many of my questions about the value of fat adaptation for life, weight and exercise.
A lot of the info given over there has been the missing key for me. And like Awdred- I am definitley going to stay on a GDM. From experience a few more carbs and decent amounts of protein suit me better and work better for weight loss.

Awdred- are you on the serious female fitness group? I have been meaning to put a post there about a good quads and glutes excercise for bad knees; there are a couple of pics demonstrating the exercises- I would be taking them off the low carb friends, bulletin boards, exercise thread.
I am not sure of the politics of all this- but I dont think the poster of the pics- a callanetics teacher would mind as she has been very generous about helping people with their exercise.

nola

adwred

I am on that group too. Yup

LOOPS

Hey Red -

what happened?

LOOPS

Oh soz - I was assuming page 2 was the end of the thread as usual!

Well I am like an elastic band with high fat! I can do down to 60% fat for all of 6 hours then ping, back to chugging fat.

I did this the other day - nice breakfast of eggs with shock horror, only a couple of pats of butter, some ham and black coffee (I always drink tea and coffee). Ham brought the whole scrambled mess down to 60% fat. Hmmm - well, despite the larger quantity eaten, I started to feel tired and cold AGAIN, and just slightly pissed off. So yeah back to eating more fat and I felt great. 60% is low fat for me.

It doesn't matter if I include more carbs - in fact that seems to make matters worst if anything - i get really hungry. However on high fat more carbs is fine.

The best thing about eating very high fat, is I get more variety - I can eat vegetables and nuts with lots of fat (no weight gain testing for past couple of months). One could argue that the veggies are simply vehicles for fat, which is partially true, but I'm back to liking them again, in small quantities. There might be something to fat blocking insulin.

Omrom handheld says I'm 24.3% body fat which hasn't changed much. But is that true? Everyone says those things aren't very accurate - but the handheld ones???

Anyway I have to admit that a couple of items of tight clothing are slightly looser after abandoning my zero carb efforts. Whatever that means I have no idea - could be all kinds of things - thyroid, not enough organ meat eating on ZC etc etc.

And I still believe that pork fat is like rocket fuel for me. Someone told me today that they sell Chicharrones in town (pork crispies). I'm off to buy some.

I am not sure that you can't lose fat on an FDM - we'll have to see what happens to Mary from that group (and others, and me if I stay or get there).

waywardsister

So Red, how are you finding the oasis meals impact your weight? Overall health?

Pole dancing class!!! Evil

adwred

The oasis meals don't really affect me in any negative way unless I go buck wild or just eat too much food and get a bit swollen and bloated. I'm not going buck wild, most times - I'm just timing my most carby meals around my workouts. But I definitely have found that without carbs, I have SIGNIFICANTLY less juice for my workouts than with them. It's amazing. Even the desire to workout is drastically reduced without carbs. I feel sluggish and icky if I know I have to do anything that involve exertion. So I've been making sure to have a banana or something before I try to lift weights and I do have a burst of energy and a lot of stamina.

Kristi31

Well,

As some of you know...I'm out of SatFat. Cry

But, I should have expected it, Red warned me. Me and my big mouth. Grin

Was a fun ride while it lasted and certainly didn't want to take control of the group or pass as an expert which you all know I'm very far from, with all my struggles , experiments and theories that have gone down the drain more than once.

Send Mary and Kata, especially Kata a BIG KISS Heart

Carnation

What happened? I got kicked out for not saying anything (I was too scared!), but thought I was the only one to get the boot.

Kristi31

I got kicked out for contradicting the owner's views and arguing with her. I guess you're not allowed to disagree or share anything that might go against what she thinks is the "truth". Oh well...

LOOPS

Hey -

I'm really sorry that happened - I was quite enjoying all the views and discussion put forward. She really can't think she has all the answers can she??? I mean people's experiences are just so different!

adwred

I don't think she thinks she has all the answers. Confused

In fact, she seems to assert that she doesn't, quite regularly. Almost all her posts have some sort of disclaimer that her info is gleaned from her own personal experience.

adwred

Kristi31

That's not true, Red.

I love it when people argue with me. I encourage others to defy me, to present other theories. My point is NOT to be right but to get at the truth. How many times have I said that "I could be wrong" or "I think that...". I even said that right now, I'm "experimenting" with this all-meat diet and who knows where that will lead me. I've been as humble as I could.

I just felt that Mary's theory was not challenged enough, not questioned enough when there is plenty of info contradicting what she is saying. I couldn't let it pass by. It was too one-sided and that's never in people's best interests. I wanted to provoke discussion, further exploration of the issues, shake up everyone's minds, make them rethink, present the other possible side of the equation, be the devil's advocate. Evil

All in the interest of getting closer to better understanding what our bodies do in certain circumstances, further allowing us to pinpoint what it is we must and musn't do.

I think it was necessary. Accepting what people say at face value is dangerous and many desperate people tend to do that in an attempt to get out of a very bad situation very quickly. I know, I've been there. And still tend to do that. Confused

Not good.

I don't regret my actions at all. I'm glad I did what I did! At least, I got my message across. What happened clearly shows that disagreement is not permitted in the group and that one must simply go along because the theories are well established by someone who's done extensive research and has a Ph.D. Sorry but I don't quite much care for titles or past research as that doesn't guarantee anything as I've realized it more than once. If something appears dodgy or not right, I will voice my opinion no matter what consequences follow. Always take everything anyone says including ME with a grain of salt. do your research, self-experiment if you want and then come back with your own findings, whether they contradict others's findings or not.

The point is not who is right but what is right in the end. Wink

adwred

Mmm hmm.

I still don't think Mary is against people questioning her theories. She's always willing to explain exactly why she's saying what she's saying. I've had plenty of questions about why she thinks x, y, z and she's always willing to hand-hold people through the science and explain everything in detail.

Kristelle, you may think people weren't questioning her enough, but she's done more to explain the science behind ketosis than anyone else I've ever read. And so far, everything she's said has made sense when applied to my own experience. That's more than I can say for the Bear or even Eades.

Maybe it was your tone when you were questioning her? Like I said - it did seem to me that you were purposely fighting (not just questioning) everything she said, sometimes for what seemed like no reason, but just for the sake of it. Maybe you're just misunderstood. Wink

I can relate.

Mary's explanations have shed a lot of light on some problems I've had for a long time and couldn't explain. Does she know everything? Of course not. She has never claimed to. But now I feel like I have a better grasp on why ZC didn't work for me. Not because of 0.6 g carb in an egg or because I wasn't trying hard enough of long enough at it (Hello! 20 months!). And for that, I'm very grateful to her. Yup

Matt

Hi adwred

I'm curious, what foods do you eat now that you're off zero-carb? It didn't work out for me either but I'm still in a mass of confusion over what to do.

adwred

I'm a real dairy-head. I eat cottage cheese and milk and yogurt as my carbs, usually, plus some banana, here and there (bananas are good before or after a vigorous workout). I mainly do goat or sheep dairy, but some cow dairy, too. The cottage cheese is cow. Sometimes some sugar or maple syrup (in homemade ice cream, for example). That sort of thing. Oh and pears. Yup

And the occasional potato or serving of rice (in sushi, for example). But I try to keep my carbs to around 50 - 60 a day now, since I'm trying to drop some fat.

Matt

Good to go. Most of those seem to be very low in oxalates, amines, and salicyates which is good. I can't eat cheese because of the amines. Do you take a lactase enzyme supplement with the milk? I've read that raw milk has lactase in it but pasteurization and homgenization destroy it.

adwred

I don't seem to have any lactose issues.

OMG someone who knows about salicylates, amines and oxalates!!! Love

I think I'm in love!

adwred

Oh and I only eat fresh cheeses (cottage cheese, very fresh buffalo mozzarella, paneer). The amines or glutamates don't seem to bother me in the really fresh cheeses, especially if I'm extra careful about other chemicals, like salicylates. Same goes for yogurt. And I don't tend to do yogurt and cheese on the same day.

Matt

adwred

Sounds familiar! I'm a huge egg-eater, too. And chicken, lamb, fresh ground beef. That's about it. I do cheat with aged things here and there, or a glass of white wine, but always suffer for it.

Matt

Ditto with the eggs. I probably eat between 8-16 scrambled yolks per day. Best. food. ever.

Do you ever buy cryovac'd beef in slabs at a wholesalerlike Costco? I'm not sure if it constitutes as 'aged' or not but it's easy to just cut off a piece at a time and then just re-seal the bag with a clothes pin as Bear says. So far I haven't noticed any big changes from normal fresh meat and it saves a lot of money.

adwred

I've never done great with vacuum-sealed meat. I always get amine/glutamate-type reactions from it. Also, I suspect they spray some of that factory meat with sulphites to keep it pink, which I also react to. It's great if you tolerate it well, though. Yup

Carnation

Officially in the industry, cryovac'ed meat is considered "wet aged."

Trem

I wish that I could get grass-fed but I can't find it anywhere in my area at a reasonable price. My two main options are the cryovac'd meat at Costco or the individual cuts at the supermarket which I think are loaded with red dye to make their appearance better. I really need to move, lol.

Carnation

Trem, have you ever ordered off the internet? Or maybe found a farm where you can buy half or a whole beef, or a small kind of animal if you are short on space? You may have to drive a little bit, but the meat comes out to be very inexpensive. We drive out to a farm that's about 2 1/2 hrs. away to get our beef. It turns out to be just a little over $2/lb. It sounds like a lot of money when you're paying for the whole thing, though. We ate roadkill for a year in order to save up enough money.

Carnation

Or if you're not specifically looking for beef, you try looking on craigslist or freecycle, and find hunters who are giving away their meat.

Trem

Carnation

The other advantage of order a whole or half animal is that you can have it cut however you please.

waywardsister

Carnation

Also, sometimes people will offer free or super low cost meat if you offer to help butcher. They usually advertise this.

Kristi31

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