Poor Poor Animals

Avalon · Poor Poor Animals

Sometimes I hate being Human

http://www.all-creatures.org/anex/chicken.html

My heart just breaks. Maybe when I'm done with my eggs... I don't know. For a while I was eating cage free eggs, what ever that really means, but went back to buying regular eggs to save money I guess. OY!

Went back and looked at the cow section

http://www.all-creatures.org/anex/cattle.html

Why does this hurt me so? This is why I think of being Vegan. And then, I forget and go back to what I've done all my life... maybe it's not even about nutrition, it's that it hurts me when I remember what I know.

ReddyMcMeaty

I can't look. It makes me literally physically sick. So does the way we treat other humans. The only thing is, ruining my own health will not do a thing about the way humans as a whole, treat their livestock. It's like, refusing to acknowledge one's own sexuality is not going to save all of those poor girls who undergo female circumcision, or human trafficking, and refusing to keep a pet will now make pet owners more responsible with their own pets. It's how I see it anyway.

Sandi

I cant look ether Cry

But are you really surprised
Money talks in human life and in animals
People cant even treat our fellow people nice for the most part
Do you think people can treat animals nice
Money talks
I don't think a few people not eating eggs will make a difference.
It had to be tons of people giving up eggs and writing to places to improve their condition.
Life stinks sometimes
sandi

ReddyMcMeaty · Re: Poor Poor Animals

woof_woof

Avalon you are a good woman but it's not a problem with being human but a problem with shitloads of humans to feed and maximizing cost efficiency rather then focusing on humanitarian ways to produce our food.

ReddyMcMeaty

and birth control

adwred

I looked. I feel I should see it. It's pretty horrible.

I'm glad I buy free-run eggs only. But i've also visited many farms as part of my job and I think the way farming works here might be a little different than is displayed in these photos. Unless all of that is going in some secret underground lair.

But yes, I'll continue to buy the most humane products I can.

woof_woof

Adwred put yourself back in the avi
You look better then those eggs.

adwred

Thanks Woof. I'm going for a little variety!

Avalon

Sandi

adwred

Are they also called 'sand fleas'? I've definitely heard the term noseums before when I've travelled in the carribean.

fabshelly

Everyone and everything has a purpose in life.

If you believe in karma, then you're seeing some people's karma being worked out.

If you believe there's a master plan at work, then this is part of it.

I'd rather eat cruelty-free food, but I eat what I can afford and what is best for my health.

I can do more to make the world a better place healthy than sickly.

barb0324

It breaks my heart, and I can understand how some Peta folks become so militant and violent even. But what are we supposed to do? I feel healthier when eating animal protein and fat, that's a fact. Should we really all give up our health or start communes to raise feed animals in humane surroundings? I don't know what the answer is, but it does tug at my heart, that's for sure. Sad

Avalon

Barb wrote:

BlackLabelSimian

Animals are better than people in many ways.
But...
They engage in survival of the fittest in it's purest form and we, as humans, do somewhat the same in regards to what we eat. Or we should if we want to be somewhat healthy. They kill to survive just as we do.

That having been said, I have no use at all for animal cruelty and think that those that engage in such behaviour should be beaten and killed.
As was already stated, I more than agree with humane conditions for animals, but I eat what I can afford. This world isn't perfect, but we all have to do our best.

I also will not look at those links because truthfully, things like that sicken and disgust me. I don't need a video to remind me of the shitty things that go on in this world daily.

ReddyMcMeaty

BlackLabelSimian

Avalon

SimMan wrote:

BlackLabelSimian

Oh, I'm sure they are out there. It'd just never be an overwhelming thing unless we all HAD To rely on each other to survive. Even after a catastrophic event, it'd take a lot to break the "every man for himself" mentality.
It'd probably have to be some kind of outside threat just like Independance Day. And no, I'm not really kidding, sadly enough.
If it was "only" a nuke attack, everyone would be looting and killing like no one's business for preservation of self and family.

adwred

You're talking about states, though, right? Not the world? There are a lot of communist nations in the world that don't quite work that way. Cuba is almost completely self-sustaining, out of necessity because of the embargo.

BlackLabelSimian

I'm reffering mostly to the States, yes. Obviously we have what some would term a "selfish" mentality in a lot of ways. But even between countries, there is not a ton of cooperation, obviously. It'd take a disaster or threat of global proportions for everyone to get along to the point of trading fairly, etc.
And as I said earlier...Within a few years it's be the same old shit again anyhow.
Person to person, state to state or country to country...EVERYONE has an agenda of some kind.
I'm kind of drifting off topic, so my apologies.
And I hope this doesn't turn into an "America totally sucks" thread, because despite our faults, there are still worse situations to be in.
I'm not a blind, stupid patriot and I know there are a lot of things that could be improved greatly here, but I am grateful to be where I am in a lot of other ways.

EDITED TO SAY: I hope my comments don't lead this to become an "America sucks" bash thread.

ReddyMcMeaty

Simian, did you watch the http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/ posted in the discussion section?

(nursing at the keyboard, sorry about the choppiness)
Pretty scary stuff. If only 10% of it is 100% accurate it is pretty scary stuff. I was thinking about it last night, what is the solution? I's not as simple as voting because even the government is only a tool. It's not as simple as waiting for the US to fall (because historically speaking, every empire does, and the US will fall, it is only a matter of time), but humans as a whole must decrease the value of money. The only way to do that (that I can see!) Is to increase communal living. I don't mean to become communist in the stereotypical way that every American fears, but to become cooperative and to exist with and for each other instead of for yourself while trying to get above each other in some way...money, property, power....

BlackLabelSimian

Even if the US falls, history really just tells us another power will rise to replace it and it'll just be more of the same. Persia, Rome, Britain, Russia, US, etc, etc and so on and so forth.
It's cyclical just like nature, really...Survival of the fittest. People have never been able to get along for any great length of time. Everyone has an agenda and eventually it comes to the fore.
Funny how everyone talks about equality, sharing and helping each other but nobody wants to be the first to step up and part with THEIR slice of the pie. It might happen in small spurts, but it never truly lasts, does it?

And no, I have not checked out the movie yet.

And sorry for the cynical attitude. I just am not in a great mood as it is atm, but I truly don't have a lot of faith in human nature as a whole on a good day.

ReddyMcMeaty

Well plenty of people are willing to do their part, the problem is that it makes no difference on a small scale except to the individuals involved, and it can only ever be on a small scale because the vast majority of people are not interested in actually disentangling themselves from the media bombardment which tells them what reality is. What to think, what to do, and the way things are. It is too much work to avoid the repetitive messages coming from all media which surrounds us day and night to get away from that so we just go along with it. I don't think that it is human nature to be predominantly cruel and power hungry, but we are easily manipulated into feeling threatened (by the few that are interested in large scale control) and once we're threatened, then suddenly it's about survival of the individual and his family, rather than humanity as a whole.

BlackLabelSimian

That's what I mean...A small scale thing is nowhere near enough.
I'd love to think people could get their shit together and cooperate, especially since I have a kid and would like to see her grow up in a halfway decent world.
But people have a "me first" mindset and in some ways, how can you blame them? Everything these days is so cutthroat that if you don't look out for your own ass, you're a fool. Someone will step over you and get that better job, that raise, whatever.

Enough people would have to be willing and like I keep saying...Without a HUGE threat to EVERYONE...Like "scare the shit" out of people huge, it is not gonna happen.

I think and believe that people should have a sense of honor and decency, but that doesn't mean be a sucker, either.
Shouldn't go out of your way to fuck people over, but you can't take anyone's shit either.

adwred

ReddyMcMeaty

Imaginary threats. Exactly. Divide the people against each other and control is so easy. Let's all be so afraid that everyone else is trying to screw us over that we cannot look at each other without suspicion. Look out for number one. " Everything these days is so cutthroat that if you don't look out for your own ass, you're a fool. Someone will step over you and get that better job, that raise, whatever. " That attitude is exactly what allows ignorance to prevail, and people to just be a bunch of nasty biting pecking killer sheep.

adwred

It's true. I've had bosses that were threatened by me and constantly took credit for my accomplishments because they didn't want to me to outshine them. Then I had bosses that nutured me and let me have the credit for the stuff I did and weren't afraid that I was going to climb over them. Because they realized that when you nurture your team, everyone benefits, everyone looks good. And because they were secure in their own talents. Generally, they were the ones who got promoted quicker or did better with their careers than the ones who hoarded the spotlight or tried to keep me 'in my place'. Because people know that the sucess of the team is indicative of the strength and talent of the person directing it.

People who hoard their money and their little square of land or their 'right to bear arms' or whatever are the ones that are keeping this world from progressing. And I don't blame them. It's precisely what those in power want - to keep people afraid. So that they remain focused on their fear of Independence Day and not focused on what the government is doing wrong.

BlackLabelSimian

Scout Finch

BlackLabelSimian

What I mean by fucking with my family or loved ones is trying to kill, hurt, steal from or take advantage of them in some way.
Same for myself...You need to look out for yourself first. I'm sorry, but you really do.

And maybe you don't live in an area where a lot of people get mugged, raped, killed, etc...But a lot of people do. I live about 20 minutes away from a pretty high crime area and my own area gets a bit worse by the day, unfortunately. Perhaps that's part of the reason I'm pretty jaded towards lot of things. I see the local news and papers and see what's going on around me.
Not to mention my lady's town gets a bit crummier by the day as well. It used to be a pretty quiet area, but the number of murders, robberies, etc is going up almost weekly.

As far as work goes, I think the old saying is true...It's not who you know, it's who you blow. And it happens in a lot more places than I think people want to believe. Going in and doing your job well isn't really enough. Just my observations and experiences, at least.

People are getting pretty tired of the current world situation regarding wars, etc.
Maybe that will be the impetus for a major shift sometime in the near future towards something better. I'd like to hope so, but I truly wonder sometimes.

And for the record, I am not an overly educated person. I graduated high school and went right into The Corps.
I am not exceptionally well read and can't rattle off facts, figures and studies like the rest of you can. I'm just a simple, dumb gorilla who knows what he sees going on around him, what I like and what I don't.

My humblest apologies to those my views or feelings might offend. Just chalk it up to another idiot rattling his sabre and ignore if you like.

adwred

Avalon

Run Caterpillar Run
a short story by
Xeta Prime

I rescued a gorgeous caterpillar and set it free far away from my cat and hopefully the red ants didn't get it.

The End

Scout Finch

Sim, I'm glad that you are thinking about your family and want to make sure they are safe. I think we all feel that way about the people we love. And nobody wants to be the victim of a violent crime.

However, your family members have a higher chance of being victims at the hands of other family members, relatives, or friends or acquaintances (domestic assault, child abuse, rape, etc.) than from outside perps. That's especially true for crimes like assault and homicide.

I myself can jump into a cab and in 15 minutes be in the worst neighborhood in San Francisco. Our homicide rate in the City has gone up in recent years, and Newsom's taking a lot of heat for it. What bothers me about this is that the mayor (or even the appropriate State or Federal level bureaucracies) doesn't do a damn thing about trying to eradicate poverty, which would in and of itself decrease the crime rate drastically. It doesn't scare me to live 15 minutes away from the Bayview because I'm afraid for my life - it bothers me because the folks who do live there deserve better! They are the ones at high risk for violence in their lives, not me.

Do you want to see decreases in violent crime? Then fight for more funding in public education, fight for universal health care to improve people's quality of life, fight for jobs programs that help put people - especially those in low-income areas who have fewer options - to work. Fight for better unemployment and disability benefits for those who can't work. Fight for decent prenatal care for all women. Fight for universal preschool and day care programs so kids have a fighting chance of starting out right. Fight for appropriate drug treatment programs for those who need it. Fight to strengthen unions for all workers, including low-paying service workers.

You have to attack the root causes of crime to eradicate it. To me, "looking out for #1" is the problem that got us to this point in the first place. Here's where we ended up because we wanted to "look out for #1": We ignore the plight of the poor. We defund public schools, especially schools in inner cities that need the most attention. Real wages are falling because corporate power has grown and the American public does not insist on more corporate oversight. Unions have been in decline for 20 years, and the American public doesn't care. So wages fall and employees have fewer and fewer rights.

And do something about the guns. Yep, there. I said it. Canada per capita has a higher rate of gun ownership than the States, but their homicide rate is much lower. What would you attribute that to?

Nicola

Sim, I always read your messages; there is the emotional part in me that tell's me that you have your "hart in the right place".

I understand life better threw "Emotional Intelligence" by Daniel Goleman. The problems start from the moment we get born and the way we grow up. So many children just don't get a chance and things will not get better as long as the world is turning the way it is.

I know it's nothing to do with me but I would be very upset if a person like you get's in to trouble threw sorry, smoking! I don't want to be a goody...but you no what that will do for you.

Nicola

BlackLabelSimian

Avalon

SimMan

adwred

OMG Xeta, you know just how to bring a ridiculous thread back on track. Laugh

Scout Finch

Sim, you do know that cop shows and the news media overblow violent crime, right? I don't want to minimize how you feel about this issue, but the truth is that the likelihood of the scenarios you just described is so infinitestimally small that it's just not worth worrying about - and it certainly doesn't warrant not "helping people" when it appears they need help.

I live in one of the most traveled and touristed cities in the world. People stop me all the time for directions - which Muni cable car do I ride? Which bus to get to the Cliff House? How do we get to Japantown? Will you take our picture? Where's Lombard Street? And on and on. And not one time - in my entire lifetime - has anybody ever jumped me or robbed me after asking me for directions.

I think it's worth examining how the news media reports on violent crime and what they want the population on the whole to believe about violent crime. Why should we look at this? Because it instills fear - the kind of fear you are talking about. And a fearful populace is one that is easy to control - from above. It instills racism and hatred for folks who are different - different in skin color, different in gender, different in socioeconomic level. And all the time we are being fearful and quaking in our boots because somebody who asks us for directions in the street might bash our heads in - the powers-that-be continue to enforce policies and fund programs that do nothing - nothing - to eradicate the problems that cause the severe poverty and inequality leading to violent crime, the majority of which crimes occur in areas of severe poverty, where people have no opportunities beyond what they see in their immediate locale.

I don't know about you, Sim, but I'm going to keep giving folks directions when they ask me. I guess I'll have to take my chances that my head will get bashed in.

adwred

My mother and I were hanging out together for the afternoon, yesterday and as we were standing in line at the coffee shop, the girl right in front of me went to pay for her coffee and realized she didn't have enough money. My mother and I reached for our purses and said in unison 'How much do you need?'. It was quite funny.

Thankfully, the girl didn't try to shiv me with one of those little wooden stir sticks while I was reaching for my wallet. Laugh

ReddyMcMeaty

BlackLabelSimian wrote:
I see the local news and papers and see what's going on around me.

Scout Finch

Yeah, or she could have opened up a packet of Splenda and thrown it in your eyes, then grabbed your purse.

Would have been pandemonium!

I was walking down Cali Street one time and a guy who looked pretty out of it, like maybe he was a street person or drunk or something, bumped into me and I lost my footing. That guy just kept on walking. I ended up sort of banging into a street light. Didn't fall over or anything. And another guy walking near me grabs my elbow to keep me from falling and asked me if I was okay. Good thing the second guy didn't take my bag!! I guess I was just "lucky" that time!

Jaybird

Sim, I'm sorry you are so jaded. You're not the only one, so many people are.

I stop and give directions, I stop and ask for them too. Yesterday, we were downtown and even driving around the "south side" of St. Pete trying to find this museum. We were rolling our window down and asking for directions, with our kids in the car!!! Our 4 year old was yelling out the window to strangers for directions Laugh

My kids are my heroes. They are not jaded, and they are happy to be alive, and they haven't learned to mistrust as deeply as many adults have. My 4 yr old son will talk to anyone and everyone. In the grocery store, walking down the street, in the park. He talks to babies, children, and adults. Women and men. Clean cut and scrubby. Black white yellow. He's just as friendly and talkative with each and every one of them. My husband sometimes freaks if my son just waves and says hello to a scruffy stranger riding by on a bicycle. I'm like "What in the hell? He said hello?". Yes, I do need to watch him (as people always fearfully point out to me....."You better watch out, he's so friendly with everyone"). I do watch out for him, he just a child. I watch him, and I learn from him.

copychick

that reminds me of a great 'spiritual' tape i listened to a while back. they were pointing out how from the time we are infants to the time we die just about all we hear is 'watch out for this, watch out for that.' from our parents, our friends, our doctors, our society, the government. so everyone is walking around with this deep rooted 'watch out!' mentality that any minute something will get them. if it's not their boyfriend cheating or their coworker screwing them, it will be cancer or cellulite or stranger danger. Beware! so we create this fearful society and the country goes to war with everything. (drugs, strangers, obesity, cancer, porn, abortion, gays...and cellulite!)

i hate to quote the Joker, but....the town needs an enema!

BlackLabelSimian

OK, fine. The stupid ape will shut up now. Happy? Good. Happy

Scout Finch

I don't think you're stupid, sim. As a matter of fact, I think you made yourself pretty clear on many of your points. You don't have to denigrate yourself every time you give an opinion. That's a passive-aggressive tactic, BTW, a way of self-protecting of some kind, but it's not necessary.

I can't speak for anybody else, but the reason I respond is because you've obviously made a coherent argument for your point of view, and I want to share mine. I don' t know what it would be like to have a conversation with you in person, but you should get accustomed to understanding that your writing style and the way you express your opinions make your points cohesive enough and compelling enough to respond to. That's a skill that many folks don't have.

But you and I are definitely on opposite sides of the fence - at least on this issue. And certainly on the "America Sucks" issue! Laugh

I couldn't be more ashamed of being an American than I am right now. Sad

Okay, now back to our regularly scheduled programming.

Xeta? Laugh

adwred

I agree, Scout. Implying you're too stupid to carry on the conversation could be interpreted as an attempt to shut it down after you've made your point, because, really, who could argue with someone after they've put themselves down like that? It is indeed passive-aggressive.

You should either 1) acknowledge that maybe you haven't considered the other side and go back and reconsider your position, or 2) stick to your opinion (and back it up) because you believe in it! But know that a lack of education doesn't mean you're not smart and it doesn't excuse you from the discussion if you're invested in it! Yup

BlackLabelSimian

It's just a case of agreeing to disagree, I guess. I just think this world is essentially a big ball of trash and nothing's going to change without something very drastic happening. The policticians, pharmaceutical companies, corporations, etc have such a lock on everything that without some kind of violent event or massive disaster nothing's going to change.
As I said, I don't think it will in my lifetime. It could, but I seriously doubt it. People are going to need to be FORCED to have to work together. Not enough are going to do it of their own free will.

And as for the "examples" of helping your fellow man gone wrong go...I was merely trying to point out that these things do happen. And even if it is an infinitely small scale, THOSE are the types of things people remember when asked the question "What have you done for your fellow man?"
Were they extreme examples? Yes. But again...That's the things folks remember. One incident like that far outweighs ten instances of good in the minds of many. If you want to call it paranoia caused by the media, then I guess you are correct. But the fact remains that those types of shitty things happen and people remember them and will cite them when challenged to lend a helping hand.

I didn't say I didn't stop and help people out. I didn't say I didn't give people directions. I was merely trying to make a point. If my examples were ridiculous to some of you, then I'm sorry.

Anyhow, no harm, no foul. As I have said repeatedly my views of what this world is and what it's going to take to change it are different from everyone else's.
I'd like to think I can be proven wrong and things can change in a less violent, drastic manner. But from what I see around me every day I sincerely have my doubts.

As for me being an idiot. It's not a defense mechanism...I'm just embracing what I am. A simple schlep who does his thing and tries his best but usually fucks it up anyhow. Laugh

Good intentions, road to hell, pavement, so on and so forth...LMAO

EDIT: For spelling error

BlackLabelSimian

Nicola

Scout goes running in the dark Wow

; I used to do that but I don't think I could do that in your city... I have done all kinds of things in my life and got my self into a lot of trouble (running about till I was fit for my one grave).

Sim, you are grate the way you are Yup

; IQ doesn't make a man a man (or a woman a woman)!!!

I get on better having "respect"; if I respect life and things that I do, have done and try to respect what others do, then I can handle life better.

Nicola

Jaybird

Sim, I have never been under the impression that you are a stupid gorilla, despite your screen name Grin

I think you are very intelligent. I actually do understand your viewpoint. I just don't think the world has to be nuked or anything that drastic for good changes to be made. It sure can seem that way though. I just watched the zeitgeist movie that Meg was talking about...Sim, you should watch it. Then we'll all have a really fun discussion in the discussion section

So, about those poor poor animals. Damn shame, isn't it? Laugh

I definitely try my best to eat humanely raised foods. Yup

I mainly get my meats from places that feed animals what they are supposed to be fed (grass for the cows, chickens can roam and eat bugs, etc etc). Places that treat them well up until the point that they kill them (humanely, yes there is a humane way) and eat them or sell them to be eaten.

I seriously want a piece of land, big enough to invite really good friends to live on and build homes, and raise our own food. Seriously.

BlackLabelSimian

I just happen to love self-depreciating humor, I guess. lol

I wish I shared everyone else's viewpoint and I truly hope I am proven wrong. I just can't help but think otherwise most of the time. But alas, to each their own, eh?

As for the animals, it truly is a shame. There really isn't much I can add to that other than what others have said. Try your best to eat what is humanely raised and hope little by little the tide starts to turn, I guess.

Avalon

Good Morning

...and I'd like to say I'm pissed! It takes a lot to upset The Borg. The thread was truly Hijacked. Twice! Someone could have started thier own fucking communal dissentment thread Shock

. This was about the suffering of animals for our food and often pleasure. Maybe it's appropriate though. I opened the thread with-

"Sometimes I hate being Human"

My post was about ANIMALS, caged, penned, killed and eaten. But now it's about US, Humans, arguing- about how we can or can't, will or won't get along Bonkers

ReddyMcMeaty

Sorry Avalon <grovel emoticon>
I meant to imply that there was a way for our lunch animals not to be "poor" but got too excited and forgot to refer back to them.
Yes, they are poor, and my first response still stands for me.

adwred

It's true, I'm sorry, too. And I also stick by my original response. Yup

But Xeta, in our defense, how are we supposed to come up with good humane solutions for animal farming unless we address those issues? I know it got O/T eventually, but I think that the 'communal living' part of the thread is on topic and that idea would do a lot to improve the animal exploitation problem. I think you probably agree. It's too bad the thread was derailed, though, I agree.

Jaybird

Hey Avalon, didn't you notice I sort of steered the subject back onto the poor animals????

Avalon

JayBird

I did, and I know Red and Meg ... And communal ideas and thoughts along the lines of sustainable living and animal treatment are important.

I was walking back from the market this morning and I just felt angry though. I would have been fine if the subject died out and went nowhere, honestly. I wanted to voice a sorrow I feel. I think I was fine up to the call I got from Jesus. But then Scout started in again (Good morning Scout) and it took off again, and I felt the animals in some small way were being fucked again by our banter over human relations. DOHHH!!!

I'm sorry. I can't tell you how much pain I feel when I think of so many deaths. These animals, regardless of purpose, have the same miracle of life that we do. Their hearts beat and bleed. Sure, life feeds on life. But we do it best of all. We throw life away. Buckets of male baby chics. Fast food!

It's okay, I just needed to vent, here

Sad

Jaybird

Waste of life, and suffering. I understand your feelings!

Avalon

A

and some

Back to you!

Benzito171

maybe if this diet catches on there will be an increased demand for chicken meat and they can at least live before they are slaughtered. Or does nobody eat rooster meat?

johndela1

Have you seen the way preditor animals kill prey animals? For what ever reason things have evolved or have been created this way with the food chain. Nature is cruel. Life is cruel. The universe is a violent place.

Poor Poor Animals

Re: Poor Poor Animals