how can i be dehydrated? inconceivable?!

copychick · how can i be dehydrated? inconceivable?!

okay, day 17. for the last few days i have felt really dehydrated. i even wake up in the night and my tongue is literally like a dried sponge, it's all crusty. i have to let water sit in my mouth to soften it back up. ew! Embarassed

i feel thirsty too. but i am drinking up to 3 liters of water a day and can go through another throughout the night. i'm drinking so much water i was concerned about overdrinking. and the water definitely seems to come out as fast and as much as i'm putting it in.

there's only a couple things i can think of...
is this just normal during fat adaptation?
am i not absorbing water -is that possible?!
is it some other lacking nutrient that i am mistaking for thirst? (but my skin and nails seem really dry too)

any thoughts??

elenarose

Yes I suffered from abnormal thirst when I adapted also, I think it's been mentioned a few times on this board. I think there's 2 reasons for this:

1) Increased protein intake - protein requires some double/triple (can't remember) amounts of water to digest compared to fats/carbs, increasing water requirement.

2) Adaptation to lower potassium/sodium levels. Your body is adjusting to requiring lower levels of salts in the body and this can cause thirst. This is why when you have diarrhea, you're supposed to give salts to prevent dehydration. You might want to try adding some potassium:sodium salt to foods for a while if it gets really bad. Eventually the body adjusts to lower levels although to be honest I can still suffer from potassium deficiency if I take in too much salt (from butter for example). This can give me some funny heart problems, finger bruising, dizziness.

Actually the difficultly in adapting to zero carbing may be something to do with potassium.

copychick

thanks, so if i eat a lot of salt, should i take in extra potassium to balance? anyone have a daily mg that worked for them? is it best to cut back on salt? i've eaten a lot of salt because i have low blood pressure and can get fainty when i stand up. plus, i LOVE salt!

i did go out and get a vaporizer today, hope that will help a little.

elenarose

Yes if you add salt, you must add potassium, why not try one of those low sodium salts?

I have low blood pressure also - 80/50 is my average yet I found the dizziness on standing was nothing to do with salts because it seemed to clear on all meat, I'm not sure why.

woof_woof

I would only add salts when you've got some muscle cramps.
And you may try to drink less water instead of more. It can help.

Avalon

What I'm about to write may seem stupid, but here goes-

What about the weather? Whenever the weather changes from warm or mild to chilly or cold, I dry up like a prune and can't seem to get enough water. My hands get dry, my lips flake off my face, like a horror movie! This passes, but it drives me goofy. Okay, more goofy Bonkers

koch900

I agree with elenarose -- sounds like a problem with your sodium-potassium balance. Just recently, I experienced this firsthand.

It all started when I tried some cantalope three or four days ago. Pretty soon, I became a cantalope fiend, eating two or three a day. Laugh

This was immensely satisfying ... while it lasted. After a few days, I became a little repulsed by the thought of eating more cantalope, and my mouth began to get this nasty metallic, dry taste. Then, I was lying in bed falling asleep when all of the sudden my taste buds demanded something salty! I got up, poured a bit of salt into the palm of my hand, licked it, and then repeated this like ten times. I went to bed and felt way better, my dry mouth disappearing immediately.

So, it seems that I was drawn to cantalope -- which is high in potassium -- because I was potassium-starved. As I do use salt with my meals, I figure I just got my salt-potassium levels out of whack, which required potassium to balance it at first. Then, I became salt-starved and was balanced again after eating salt.

Now, I know that if I use salt I should be consuming plenty of potassium with it (not necessarily at the same meal, but throughout the day).

I feel way less dry mouth and way less thirsty, too. I'm drinking about three or four cups of water & broth a day in addition to potassium-rich fruits like cantalope, mango, papaya, banana, etc. (no more that 80g carbs). I think that three liters is way too much and will overhydrate the body leading to mineral-leaching and lots of pee! Wink

Avalon's idea about weather-changes also makes sense, I think.

koch900

One more thought ..

I read on another board (or maybe this one?) that a person who met Aajonous Vonderplanitz, the raw meat advocate/guru, was struck by how dry his mouth looked. This person said that it looked like AV was in serious need of water.

Now, AV is a big proponent of the "drink less water" philosophy and believes that all the water our bodies need can be derived from the foods we eat -- if you're eating raw. He advises eating tomatoes, drinking veggie juices, and consuming butter to prevent/remedy dehydration.

So, this got me thinking:

If this AV guy has a dry mouth, yet seems to consume plenty of electrolytes and water in veggie juices and tomatoes and raw meat -- what's the deal? What's he missing? Then, reading this thread, I realized what might be happening with him.

AV believes that salt is detrimental to our bodies and that all the sodium one needs can be found in celery, zuchinni, and other veggies like these. I say, MALARKY! Mad

Salt & veggie sodium ain't the same thing.

So, maybe AV's dry mouth is due to lack of salt in the diet and is aggravated by his high intake of potassium. A lack of balance! Shows what can happen when we adhere to strictly to ideas and forget how to follow our bodies' needs.

elenarose

Interesting, i've been having strange heart problems which I put down to potassium deficiency but actually it might be a sodium deficiency because i've been eating potatoes recently...(having trouble finding a fat source, don't want to over protein myself).

koch900

Hey, elenarose, try a little bit of salt and see what happens. Maybe you'll want some more .. and more ... and more ... Cool

elenarose

Salt DOES help...

those god damn plants are going in the bin I swear!!!!!!

Modern_Caveman

The cantelope-period affected me earlier in the switch.

I cut down my salt intake, but I have gotten recent cravings that can only be satisfied with salt. I go to the washroom less now, and my muscle aches are gone. Anyone else have a runny nose when eating?

edit: I found pro-salt info.

"Ancient Man, the 'hunter-gatherer' had to take in salt daily to stay alive, and in order to balance his water intake. He found it in the blood of his prey. Agricultural man, consumed up to 150 grams a day, including additional uses of salt for many other urgent new necessities like tanning of leather, glass, and not least, 'sacrificial' ritual and meat preservation." http://www.salt.org.il/phys.html

copychick

so are you guys no carbers or more paleos now? i eat a ton of salt, love it, so i'm taking some potassium. and i used the vaporizer last night, the dry mouth was a lot better. i didn't need to drink in the middle of the night.

i am also finding that my little glass of red wine is having the a LOT more impact the more days i am carb free. the buzz is not the same, more like i just get muffled in the head and tired. and the next day i feel icky, like i had a lot more to drink than i did, so i can see it is going to have to go. i'm also reacting to foods i used to be able to eat. i got stuck at a poker game for longer than i thought i would (hey i had to get my money back! Grin

) and was forced to eat a couple handfuls of peanuts. man did i feel like crap, tummy ache, and i got a rash on my stomach like some kind of toxin coming out through my skin. i can see i will always have to carry a snack with me. i don't like this aspect of adaptation, because, i mean, what if i'm sent to prison....and i have to eat what's available!

caveman, my nose seems to either run or get stuffy when i eat anything other than a very 'pure' meat meal. if i add spices, butter, any dairy, hot or cold liquids, caffeine....boom i get this reaction. i definitely get stuffy when i eat lots of salt! Sad

i pretty much feel if i just stopped f*cking around and ate meat and fat i would probably feel great in short order, but what can i say, i'm a human with compulsive/addictive tendencies...so i'm gonna have to suffer!

elenarose

Mmm I don't know what i'm doing at the moment, my amine and casein intolerance makes all meat difficult and I can't seem to find a source of fat I don't react to negatively so i'm eating some carbs just to get the calories in. But of course since then i've had other reactions like the potassium/salt thing I can't win.

Benjamin_

Elenarose: I am not surprised you react to all fats. High-fat is simply bad.

Copychick, the stricter you'll be, the worse it'll get. You'll react more and more to everything you didn't react to before. No-carb doesn't work.

If I were you I would continue the experiment as strictly as possible just to be convinced that it doesn't work. When you've had enough, all of a sudden drop the fat and add 50-100 carbs/day, keeping the raw meat -- you'll see the difference. Literally day and night.

All my problems are gone (almost all of them created by no-carb, not solved), I have fantastic energy and everybody comments about how healthy I look.

Avalon

The problem here is, there is always another answer to your question. No-carbs, low-carbs, high carbs- there is plenty of so-called evidence, even hard-core evidence that all work to some degree. Researching this can drive anyone bonkers!

If you have a hunch go for it. If you're body feels right, take notice. Write it down even. There are so many contradictory dietary recommendations. Each one of us are on an exploratory journey- those who are seeking truth anyway Happy

Any one read Illusions by Richard Bach? You go through this exciting book of possibilitiesand revelations, then, at the very end he writes this could all be wrong!

DOHHH!!!

woof_woof

Benjamin_

adwred

I think Benjamin's right. Thank God the Inuit had all those supplements and occasional carb-cheats to get them through the last several thousand years. Otherwise they may have gone extinct! Shock

elenarose

Benjamin,

I have tried high protein, high fat and high carb. High fat is easily the one I feel best on because it releases the least insulin. I have trouble obtaining fats fresh enough for me because I have food intolerances, nothing to do with macronutrients. My fat isn't particularly high at the mo anyway, certainly not 80%.

Do you realise a high protein low fat diet is just a high carb diet?

What I do agree with you is that you do not need to be ketoadapted to experience that energetic high all day long. It's a matter of steady insulin. Personally too much insulin gives me a bad headache.

unintelligible

koch900

Benjamin,

Few people here have stated with utmost certainty that this WOE is the best for everybody. Many people believe in this way of eating and are trying it out for themselves.

TheBear, of course is the exception, as he has done it for 40-some years, which is plenty of time to observe and experiment and theorize why the diet works. It is also enough time to develop a very strong conviction that influences others' choices. I see nothing wrong with this, as experience wins over intellectualism in my book.

Your experience with high-fat has been short-lived, and I take everything you say with a grain of salt. I have lots of ideas based on my minimal experience, as well. But I always make sure to say, as Avalon implied, that it's all my theory -- it could be wrong.

I think that it's great that you can articulate your experiences w/ high fat, but perhaps it would be best to exercise some humility. Once you've been going strong for 40-some years, then you can draw conclusions from cumulative experience. Until then, it is all your opinion. Wink

My own personal experience has been that there is absolutely nothing wrong with zero-carb -- there's just something wrong with me! I wasn't raised on the best of diets and have not been as good to my body as I could have been, experimenting w/ vegetarianism and low-calorie long-term fasting while remaining active. I depleted my health immensely this way, thus my body needs some time to heal in order to process fats and proteins properly. So, I don't believe zero-carb, high-fat is "simply bad" at all! Smile

I would like to know some things about you, Ben, if you don't mind:

1) How old are you?

2) How long did you try high-fat?

3) What is your health/dietary history? SAD diet growing up? Heathy parents?

I appreciate your honesty in answering the above questions. We can all help each other a lot, but first we have to let go of our egos and just be flat-out honest.

copychick

and benji, what kind of carbs are you eating? i went no carbs because my blood sugar swings wildly and i suffered major cravings/addictions/mood/digestion and energy problems. i had to get off the carb rollercoaster, and thus think being fat adapted will be better for me. before going carnivore i was LC with veggies and a small amount of fruit but it just wasn't giving me results as far as stable energy. i wanted to give carnivore a chance.

also, to be fair, there are several threads here and on other forums where people are very, very pleased with their results on a no carb way of life. but indeed, to each his own.

woof_woof

On a meat only diet I drink lots of black coffee some diet Coke and sometimes I get drunk with whiskey or vodka and I feel fine. No supplements no overanalyzing of my protein/fat ratios, almost no salt. I just eat when I feel like usually in the evenings.

Getting rid of dairy made a big difference for me.

I try to break the diet very rarely but I always feel worse not better after eating non-meat foods.

Am I alien or something?

Benjamin_

adwred: Do you feel the need to insult me? No need to get sarcastic. You remind me of a teen in a gang who makes fun of outsiders -- not impressive for a grown woman...
About Inuits: "they usually seem as old at sixty as our women do at eighty" (Stefannson himself). A comment?

elenarose: Do you react to suet?

unintelligible: I can't argue with that. Good for you. I'm not sure you're a good example though: if you can't stand 30 grams of carb at age 20, you may have serious problems. I do 'okay' on any diet -- I went into this whole zero-carb thing half out of curiosity, half to solve some minor problems I now know came from wheat allergy -- only happens if I eat titanic quantities of it. I think I am a better guinea pig than you are, especially since most people react like me on zero-carb.

copychick: I used to think that maybe we needed something in vegetation which is not glucose, like vitamin C or something. I've experimented, and it's really about the carbs themselves (glucose as a fuel). Bottom line, I react a bit to fruits, vegetables have little glucose, so are useless, hence the best carbs I've found are grains -- the most concentrated.

koch900: Here are the 'flat-out honest answers' -- I have better things to do than lie on anonymous forums...

1) I am 27.

2) I tried absolute strict zero-carb high-fat (dairy-free, only suet, supposedly the best) continuously for 2 and a half months. No cheat whatsoever, because I had to know -- for myself, not for winning arguments on random forums. I never drink alcohol, coffee or diet drinks. It was only red meat, suet and water (Evian), everything almost raw, with microscopic amounts (probably <0.5g) of hot spices, I even tried without the spices for 2 weeks (didn't change anything of course).

3) Never had any serious health problems. Not overweight. Grew up in Paris, France eating quite a lot meat and fat including cheese. My mother is 70, active and in excellent health, her mother died at age 96, my father died of cancer at 65, the rest I don't know.

My actual experience (it's all that counts):
- High-carb (default diet before I started experimenting) is not very good, although I never tried it again. Doesn't say much, since it was unrestricted.
- No-carb high-fat is bad. 100% sure.
- No-carb low-fat, on the *short term* is much better than high-fat no-carb, but bad anyway (immediate weakness).

Summary as of now (I keep experimenting):
- high-fat is bad in any case.
- high-meat seems very good.
- too many carbs (with high-meat) seems to cause some minor problems.
- medium-carb (50-90g/day), high-meat, no added fat is by far the best I've found. Carbs as starch (rice right now), not fruits.

There are still many unknowns (I'll experiment about this in the future): raw or cooked? fish or red meat? fruits or grains (I think grains)? how much carbs exactly?

As I said, I wish man was just a carnivore. Would be simple. But it's not the case. Man really seems to need carbs, although high quantites of it are evil. It's imperfect and partial. But who said Nature's perfect?

woof_woof

Benjamin

I wonder why you post on this forum?
It's called "no-carber". And it means that it's about trying a diet without carbs. Not with some carbs. Zero means zero not 50-100 gr.
If you on carb-based diet it's up to you and it's fine by me but there are planty of other forums to post about mixed diets.

woof_woof

Refering to your comment abot adwred. I like when grown women behave childish sometimes...

koch900

Hey Ben,

Thanks for the detailed response -- much appreciated. What struck me most about your words is how closely your experiences resemble my own, in terms of what I have experimented with and what I arrived at.

I myself eat the same amount of carbs as you (usually 80g or so) and seem to do well with lean meats, medium-chain fats (ghee & coconut oil), and it's still up in the air as far as starch or fruits as the best source of carbs. I don't think there's anything special in veggies and fruit, either, aside from the extra energy from glucose and maybe potassium and other electrolytes.

2.5 months is a pretty good run on this WOE, and the results you experienced were probably a good indicator of your own body's needs. I was never strict because of excessive weight loss and digestive difficulty, although once my health is improved I'd like to have another go at zero-carb, high-fat.

You say you've never had any serious health problems. That kind of boggles my mind seeing as you were high-carb before attempting this WOE. It seems to me that everybody who has been on high-carb for most of their lives has experienced some sort of health issues -- blood sugar problems, obesity, digestive disorders, muscular tension, sleep disorders, etc. Have you have had problems like these? I would consider these serious health issues, as they typically indicate underlying illness.

For example, I had low back pain, neck tension, TMJ, sleep difficulty, and more on high-carb as long as I could remember. I just saw these things as normal -- my body was well-acclimated to these problems and so it was easy to ignore them. It turned out that all of these things were related to poor digestion, which I am still struggling to overcome. Has your health history included anything like this?

I guess what I'm getting at is: the human body is incredibly complex. Nobody really has any clue what is going on inside it, and we are our own greatest healers. When we are aware of our own bodies, as we were when we were children, we can notice the little pains and annoyances that are really signals pointing to misuse. Would you consider yourself "aware" of your body, Ben? (Sounds like you are considering your dietary explorations)

The reason I ask is that I believe there are varying degrees of body awareness. I ignored my body's signals for a long time; it became a habit that needed some extremely slow re-learning to break. I don't think a person can be "oversensitive" to the body's signals. Everything that happens means something.

There are layers upon layers that must be sifted through to get to the root of our bodies' needs. Maybe (and I'm just saying maybe) you didn't take enough time to sift through those layers to arrive at the root of your problem with a high-fat diet. Maybe (just maybe) your body needs more healing before it can handle such a diet.

I'm just speaking from my own experience. Low-carb, High-fat has been a gift in that it helped me (and is still helping me) pin-point the things I need to heal in my body. I have not given up on it because it's not a fault of the diet -- it a fault of my own body!

Please note, Ben, that I am not interested in changing your mind or convincing of anything. I am open to learning from your experiences, and I would hope that you would consider -- with an open mind -- my own. Whatever the case may be, I'm thankful for such correspondences and am happy to grow from them! Cool

elenarose

Okay.

Benjamin I never tried suet so I can't answer that one.

Now then it certainly took me much more than 2 months to adjust from high carb to no carb, in fact i'd say it took me about 6 months to really fat adapt, do you really think the body will change so quickly from a lifetime of carb? Why do you think some alcoholics DIE sometimes when they're removed from their poison?

The reason your diet works is because you're still on a carb based diet. You may say it's a protein based diet but excess protein is converted to carbs, which is then converted to fat, damn what a metabolic waste?? The reason fat is not good for you with protein is because the body doesn't like a mixture of energy sources, a high fat/high carb diet is the worst of all.

A high protein diet is entirely unique. There isn't a single group of non industrialized people on the planet who eat more than 20% protein and most eat at least 30% fat.

If you have a wheat intolerance, then why not other food intolerances? It sounds to me you were reacting to chemicals or something, not macronutrients. Do you think human's are supposed to eat grains? (asians are an exception).

By the way I do fine on zero carb, I did it for months, I do eat carbs now but only because i'm on such a restricted diet and I need the calories. Not every day.

I presume you're restricting cholesterol also? That makes no sense at all!

koch900

Very good points, elenarose. A lifetime of high-carb and a body adapted to it = quite a challenge to convert to the complete opposite! Yup

adwred

koch900

Yeah, I revisited that old thread where Ben is describing his symptoms on a high-fat diet, and many sound very similar to my own. I would need Ben to clarify this, but it sounds like he has some digestive issues with fat that he is overlooking.

But, reading through the posts on that old thread, it appears that this was already suggested to him, and he kind of denies the problems as being problems. Maybe, as I stated earlier, he needs to take a hard objective look at his body's signals and tend to them before making such statements about the nature of a high-fat WOE. A person in good health would not have the symptoms he described.

awdred, I agree with you about the Inuit (and all primitive peoples who "age quickly"). They faced environmental exposure that we moderns do not. They also faced lean times that we don't today. And then there's the whole hygiene factor. I mean, c'mon, who cares if they aged quicker! They were undoubtably some of the happiest people on earth -- they must have been doing something right!

Do you think the Inuit suffered from any degenerative disease throughout their entire lives? I haven't found information to suggest this at all -- I always come up with the opposite.

So we modern folks live longer lives, but it seems like most people live many years in pain that they are unaware of because their bodies become numb to it. Then, one day, they have a heart attack or stroke or some other crisis that is the result of years of bodily abuse. 100% of the young people I converse with about health have admitted to some kind of pain in their bodies.

I believe primitives are so happy and healthy because they have never experienced the long-term problems that modern people see as normal (i.e. "I have a weak back"; "My neck is always tense"; "I don't sleep well at night"; etc.). With such chronic issues in the body, it's no wonder many people become jaded, fed-up, stressed out, depressed, and egotistical! Bonkers

One more inquiry to, Ben (because I really enjoy tracking down and getting to the root of health problems Wink

):

Have you ever done any sort of body work that increases your bodily awareness? Breathing exercises? Yoga? Chiropractic? Pilates? Massage? etc.

I ask this because I have practiced such things (and still do), and I have increased my bodily awareness to the point where I can feel it when it's in alignment and when it's out. A spine that is out of alignment is indicative of internal malfunction. I have narrowed down my alignment issues over the years (it takes time!) and have come to the point where I can take a full breath and feel a specific single vertebrae pop back into place! (This is after years of several vertebrae doing the same from my low back on up.)

Of course, this vertebrae (T4 in chiropractic terms -- middle of the upper back) is directly related to the stomach, liver, and gall bladder. I believe it is my stomach that is causing it to nudge out of aligment because of the spastic nature of my intestines pushing my stomach upwards. So, the root of my problems is, and always has been, digestive.

Quite a body journey, eh? Laugh

Do you have experiences like this, Ben (or anybody else)?

Benjamin_

adwred: This is useless. I ignore you, you ignore me -- deal?

koch900:
- No I never had those problems except recently on very high-fat (digestive problems, paleness, weakness, headaches on high dairy fat). Everybody who has been on high-carb for most of their lives haven't had major health problems, otherwise everybody would.

- No I've never done Yoga, chiropractic etc. I never exercise. It's boring and I believe the effect is negligible compared to food. This "exercise culture" doesn't exist in Paris. I walk a lot though since I don't drive (Paris is like New York for that). Don't worry about me, I look fit and muscular -- and handsome enough...

- I don't get what you say about denying the problems. All I'm saying is: if the diet doesn't work for an apparently healthy 27 year old guy like me who can tolerate almost every diet and who tries things very strictly, then the diet is screwed-up. We all have basically the same body. But look at my old posts, in the beginning of high-fat zero-carb I said I was "perfect".

http://activenocarber.myfreeforum.org/about791.html

If you're healthy, your body holds out. Obvious effects just take some time to appear.

elenarose

Okay i'm sorry, I should consider other people's experiences. Except all your symptoms are explainable and nothing to do with fat.

Benjamin_

Dave

elenarose

Even if I explained in great scientific detail what I believe to simply be a food intolerance and inadaptation, you would still say I was wrong and I have no desire to help somebody who doesn't listen. I would be better off working on my degree in metabolism. (I'm not joking - I am actually doing a degree in metabolism, molecular biology and biochemistry Razz

)

Why don't you respond to my previous post first and explain why you believe fat to be bad other than symptomatic evidence.

Benjamin_

elenarose:

LOOPS

Hello Benjamin -

I'm sorry to hear of your problems - sounds bad! But I wanted to chime in because I don't look pale or sickly on high fat. In fact everything just got much better for me. I had terrible eczema, acne and this weird rash round my eyes until I dropped the carbs and started eating a lot of animal fat. Seriously - I was so glad to finally find a cure for my eczema.

I have done the thing you do now - lean protein and some carbs (80-100g) awhile back and it didn't work for me. I ended up gaining some weight and also being very hungry all the time, and it didn't do much for my skin problems.

I don't do zero carb, but close to it most of the time. This is because I still enjoy some foods like nut butters and tomatoes and I like wine too - they don't cause me problems in small amounts. But I might try zero carb - I feel fine.

I will say that the only time I feel I could do with more straight carbs is during intense tennis training. I have had problems with sprinting round the court on VLC, and presently have an injury possibly from overtraining - this might be connected but I can't say for sure.

Sounds like you have a strange problem though with looking pale - are you eating lots of red meat?

elenarose

Ben, i'm sorry I don't have time at the moment to perform a constructive debate and I do appreciate that you're trying. Since you like symptomatic evidence so much, then why not use me as an example.

I'm the opposite of you, my body is not very strong, i've been malnutritioned most my life with undiagnosed celiac disease. A high protein diet gives me diarrhea, nausea and I cannot eat very much at a time. I feel sluggish and I reak of ammonia. It doesn't matter if i'm eating high fat/high carb as well, too much protein in my diet does not agree with my body. This is why I cannot do zero carb because I need a source of carbs in the diet - either protein or carbs, so carbs give me less problem, plus they're a great fat carrier.

High carb can also give me nausea. The only thing that doesn't is fat. I can eat 200g of fat at a time no problem, in fact I feel energised. With me - I have liver issues, I detox foods very poorly and I have multiple chemical intolerance. Both protein and carbs require intense 'processing' by the liver, but if your liver is strong a high protein diet will probably work just fine.

I'll add more stuff when I get time.

koch900

Ben wrote

Benjamin_

Not bad for some cute 22 year old girly ingenue...

Mike · zero carb vs. vlc

Benjamin,

I totally agree with everything you have written in this topic/post.

It is simply a fact that there are no abundant amounts of fat available in nature. People here should think about it. But they don´t want, because they might want to get a magic pill, like zero carb, which is very easy and solves everything. Even wild boar is relatively lean. I´m on a 100% raw diet and I don´t need much fat to feel good, energetic and healthy. On a cooked diet I need much (!) more fat, especially if I eat cooked meat. In my opininion these high amounts of fat are required to compensate the bad effects of cooked meat. Cooked wild boar for example tastes dry and is not very palatable without additional fat. Raw wild boar tastes excellent and is perfect as it comes from nature, without adding anything, IMO.

The worst fat of all I know is suet. This 'golden fat' always gives me thousands of problems. Especially sharp abdominal pain which I never had before, heart problems, insomnia, paleness etc. Following the saturated animal fat ideology I have tried suet many times. Problems, always! Surprisingly soft bone marrow seems to be very good for me. I don´t know ONE SINGLE person in germany who eats suet. You get it for free from every butcher. Of course, you can´t find wisdom in the masses. But nevertheless, it makes me skeptical that all butchers declare suet as garbage, beside from my own disastrous experiences. Lard doesn´t give me such problems. Interestingly, lard is not seen as shit by any butcher.

Regarding zero carb: I have tried it several times, for weeks, for months. It doesn´t work for me. I feel perfect with round about 50g carbs per day. The only carbs I eat are fruits. I have not touched any other carbs for several years. Fruits don´t have addictive effects like bread. Saying all carbs are the same is oversimplification again. It is just the opposite in my case. If I eat to much fruit my body strongly rejects it. But if I eat small amonts of bread, I could eat TONS of it, becoming totatlly addicted and crazy. I think that small amounts of carbs, berries for example, are very healthy. Could it be possible that the eskimos just don´t eat carbs because they can´t find fruits in the ice?

Regarding 'The bear': If he can´t tolerate small amounts of fruits and other carbs, he seems to have serious health problems. I have seen only one photo of him which was posted on wikipedia. He looks very very unhealthy, IMO. Furthermore he suffers from cancer, heart problems, arteriosclerosis and sleep problems (somewhere he posted that he needs melatonin pills to be able to sleep if I remember correctly). So, regarding this, I would be careful with his ideology of zero carb.

Mike

elenarose

What kind of ratio are we talking here? How much protein/fat/carbs? No fat at all?

I will try this diet for a while and see what happens, i'm always up for being a guinea pig. It will help me understand your experience before I retaliate with science.

copychick

mike do you consider yourself fat adapted at that level of carbs? did you go through a period of fat adaptation and then add the carbs back in?

i have no doubt that humans would have eaten fruit when they came across it, which, if they were lucky, would have most likely been apples in the fall and berries in the spring. i've had wild apples, there is virtually no sweet taste, only sour, they are mostly fiber. i can't digest them. as for the supermarket kind, um, excuse my french, but they have so much fructose, for me, they are little fart factories!

i can tolerate berries, but they set off cravings for me, they make me want to eat more and eat sweets. so for now i am zero carbing and i have to say for the first time ever i am not having wild blood sugar swings or cravings. my alcoholic history makes my process a bit different i'm sure.

elenarose

Sorry we hijacked your thread copychick.

I just tried to eat higher carb, oh god the insulin totally wiped the concentration in my brain, I can't do it. Sorry but I don't like an insulin output at all thank you.

koch900

koch900

Mike Didn't you say that you experimented w/ veganism or something along those lines? For how long?

copychick Wild fruit definitely came seasonally in their fresh state, but there was plenty in many environments to store in dried form through the winter. HG's wouldn't have eaten a whole lot of fresh fruit due to its bulk and impractical nature as a food (requires lots of chewing).

One example I can offer is the Tohono O'odham people here in Southern Arizona. Seasonal desert fruits include saguaro and prickly pear cactus fruits. Both of these fruits are actually very sweet right off of the cactus, but get even sweeter when processed for storage and easier consumption. Saguaro fruit can be dried and the juice can be boiled into a very concentrated syrup that will last well beyond a year. Same w/ prickly pear fruit. Both fruits also contained high-protein/fat seeds, saguaro being especially oily and fatty.

It information like this that makes me wonder about the argument that wild fruits were less sugary, more fibrous, etc. Native people didn't eat them in that form! They always processed these fruits to make them more concentrated nutrient-wise and far sweeter.

But that's not to say that reliance on such high-carb, sugary fare would provide optimal health. I don't think these peoples' teeth were the greatest and they were quite malnourished much of the time (compared to modern standards). They did not have much meat/fat in their desert environment and so had to make up for it with carby plant foods.

Avalon

Koch900 wrote:

the_individualist · Re: zero carb vs. vlc

Mike

Benjamin_

koch900:
I'm a man
Wow-- shock. You were all nice and sensitive in your other posts, I assumed you were a girl... My mistake. Ingenue (originally a french word) means innocent girl. Often refers to stock characters in fiction.

...too many accounts of people throughout history...
Yes yes, it's always a long time ago, in a country far far away. Now in the real world nobody does it, not even you -- blaming body damage for your inability to digest fat and at the same time saying that fat is easiest to digest... Doesn't make any sense.

There are many GI malfunctions that could be occuring... check stomach acid levels ...
Yeah, whatever the name. I want to know the solution, not the problem. It's all very good to know that it's dysbiosis and acid level this and irritation that, but what do you do about it? Knowing the problem doesn't solve it. And explaining observable facts using unobservable pseudo-facts ("unhealtiness of the body") is the definition of religion. Which leads to persisting in saying fat is good while eating carbs like you do. Food is everything -- if you eat some way and nothing improves, you don't eat the right way. Period.

Mike:
About raw/cooked: I am not that sure about raw anymore. At least for vegetation, cooked is much easier to digest than raw. The body has a hard time extracting anything from raw vegetation -- measures of vitamins in the blood can easily be ten times higher for cooked compared to raw. It may also be true for meat. Raw meat in high quantities gives me this small lower-left abdomen pain, cooked meat doesn't. By the way, almost no primitive culture in the world eats everything raw. Eating raw flesh in the wild is very dangerous for us so it probably was for our ancestors -- and fire has existed for a long time. Do you still have this problem with digesting raw beef, and what was it exactly? Have you compared raw and cooked meat now that you eat carbs?

About fish/meat: Have you noticed beneficial effects of fish compared to meat, or negative effects due to the apparently real threat of mercury/PCB?

About protein: You said earlier that very high-protein was the worst you could do for your body. Could you describe the symptoms?

adwred · Re: zero carb vs. vlc

adwred

elenarose

I think everybody has said most things I wanted to, which is good because i'm tired of this debate. Too much carbs and too much protein both make me feel groggy, I never have a problem with too much fat, not much else to say.

LOOPS

yeah hear hear. I keep eating and snacking until I get enough animal fat - then chao hunger. I got two compliments today on my skin - seriously - I NEVER got them before. I really love saying - well, I just eat lots of animal fat - specifically lots of lard. That's really shocking for a lot of people. I also seem to be tanning really really well this year (I live in Chile). For the first time in ages I feel HEALTHY. Like really grounded. And it's not olive oil or fruit that's doing it - it's eating animal fat.

So it's working for me.

koch900

Ben,

Long, long ago in a country far far away? C'mon, dude! So you're saying you don't believe any historical documentation and anthropological accounts? How can you make comments about humans and cooked food, then? Is this just your feeling? Or is it based on research you've done?

You still have not answered my query about your digestive health. Were your stools easy to pass? Or did you do a fair amount of straining?

There are plenty of remedies for stomach acid deficiency and dysbiosis. If you've at all been interested in health improvement, you would have researched such things. It seems that you just assume you are healthy, despite symptoms. The first step to solving a problem is recognizing you have one.

That's okay, most people make this same assumption, even though they may exhibit plenty of symptoms that would suggest otherwise. It's not denial -- in fact, it's perfectly natural! Were are supposed to feel this way about ourselves; we are supposed to feel perfect in every way; we are not supposed to have little pains in our bodies consistently. I believe, too, that we are to maintain the same health and smoothly funtioning body throughout life.

But, hey, we moderns are screwed up! So, as in no other time in history, we have to heal our bodies from a life of mistreatment and also re-learn how to be in tune with our bodies as we were when we were children. The means to this end will be different for every person. For me, I have vivid memories of my childhood when I am on the right path and also dream lucidly often (where I can control my dreams). These things have increased on a high-fat diet (w/ 80g carbs or less)!

And this is all my opinion! Take it for what you will!
Happy

wildandfreehumyn

waywardsister

Interesting thread.

Ben - you mentioned a wheat allergy. Is it a true allergy, or an intolerance? How were you tested? I ask bc I have trouble with wheat/grains and dairy (it's the proteins in both cases, gluten and casein respectively) and they can and do leave gut trouble in their wake, even after cutting them out of your diet. For me, at least, I became more noticeably sensitive to foods after going gluten and casein free - by body was no longer maladapted, so I simply am aware now of what goes on in my body.

Anyway, I am mentioning this bc a big side effect of food intolerances is fat malabsorption (and since you have one to dairy, you likely have one to wheat gluten as well rather than an allergy...they very frequently go hand in hand bc the proteins have a similar molecular structure). It *could* be that your GI tract has some healing still to do. Just a thought to consider.

BTW, I personally feel much, much better with high fat. The first time I tried it though, years ago, it made me nauseous and feel horrible. I still had intestinal damage, unbeknownst to me. Maybe this doesn't work well for you right now, maybe it never will - but for some of us, it absolutely does. That doesn't in any way negate your experience, just as your experience doesn't in any way negate mine (or anyone else's).

Anyway, how you feelin', Copychick?

Avalon

You can't pay me to be serious Wow

But seriously, What if the Aliens who landed and showed us how to spark a flame instead of waiting for a good thunderstorm, what if all this cooking is taking us somewhere (other than the grave) and going back to raw will muck it all up.

I've come to like raw meat, flavored with soy, but I sure do love that rare Prime rib! And the hot juicy Fat! The fat doesn't taste as good room temp. Is all this acculturation also?

Is it true a cooked egg provides more protein?
Bonkers

koch900

waywardsister -- Thanks for bringing this discussion back. I feel that is really important to evaluate intestinal health (which really dictates overall health) when questioning why foods aren't working for someone. Your mention of gluten-sensitivity and gut damage, and how this relates to fat malabsorption, gave me something to really ponder about why my gut is the way it is.

From the beginning of my experimentation w/ high-fat, I have exhibited many symptoms of fat-malabsorption. For a while, I'd actually see white chunks of fat in my stool (from beef tallow). It has significantly improved as my gut has healed from avoiding major allergens like wheat and dairy! Cool

I now think that all along it may have been food-allergy related. I had seen blood in my stool for years before eating high-fat/protein. Not to mention my energy wasn't up to par, I had an uncontrollable mild depression/anxiety, and several muscle problems -- and don't get me started on digestion!

These things weren't noticeable to me because I believed I was healthy -- I always had been before ... right??? I don't believe so. Looking back and honestly evaluating my life, I have had nagging issues for as long as I can remember.

Is there a chance that Ben has undiagnosed gut damage that is causing him fat digestion problems? I suspect so, but only he can really determine the answer to that question. So far, he has presented personal experience as to why high-fat is bad including very specific symptoms, while there are plenty of folks out there who have the opposite opinion based on personal experience and lots of research, clinical studies, historical accounts, and the opinions of various authors/health professionals.

Hopefully Ben returns and answers my questions about his stool consistency and bowel habits. This may reveal what was really happening on his high-fat, dairy-rich WOE, as well as the following 2.5 months (not nearly enough time for the gut to heal) on a raw meat/suet diet. We can all learn a lot from this exchange!

You still there, Benji? Smile

Benjamin_

koch900: Yes I had hard stools, like nuts. Some straining, nothing dramatic.
...not nearly enough time for the gut to heal...
Hey, it's the other way around: the problems BEGAN with high-fat and ended immediately after. Stop it with this healing/adaptation/detox BS. That's fruitarians-like excuses to explain away the symptoms -- when losing their teeth on fructose they say it's damage from previous diets. Hello! You're doing the same with high-fat.
And don't bother with studies: you know very well that the medical establishment says high-fat is bad and that's precisely because the overwhelming majority of studies find that.

waywardsister and others:
It *could* be that your GI tract has some healing still to do:
As usual, the fruitarians argument: blaiming the failure of this diet on previous diets. You people really need to stick to the facts. I was dead-convinced high-fat was good, I tried strictly, now I've evolved. Many others (eg Mike) did too. Wake up, Neo.
but for some of us, it absolutely does
No it doesn't. Okay, here is the FACT. Like I did, some of you do okay on "high-fat" DESPITE the fat, not because of it. You people do things by halves: without dairy, it's not high animal fat at all. Try eating a lot of suet (supposedly the best fat) and you'll know for sure. Continue with your half-measures and compromises, and you'll never know. Oh, and do REAL zero-carb -- you people compromise with alcohol and carbs-for-workout and cream and "small amounts" of low-carb veggies. You are saved by your compromises -- eat only raw red meat and suet (half/half by weight) plus water for only 2 weeks and you'll KNOW. Until then, as the Bear said, you classify as diet wusses.

By the way, look at that bigsea dude -- yet another failure. But like fruitarians, he's so convinced that he doesn't look at the facts. I'm sure copychick failed too -- copychick?

Avalon

Benjamin wrote:

elenarose

Mmm. I tried low fat, low carb, high protein for a few days and I had absolutely no energy and just felt really weak. I caved and had about 80g of lard and I did an intense workout for 1h 30 min afterwards...umm how strange!

elenarose

LOOPS

yeah yeah - I'm a wuss! A great big wuss! But I tell you - NOTHING worked for my bulimia or eczema. I saw slight improvements in my skin on a mixed diet that had more animal protein, but the bulimia remained. A real healing took place once I cut out most of the carbs and concentrated on eating animal fat - with about the same amount of protein I'd been eating before. The veggies I eat don't make that difference - I was eating those before and in much greater quantities.

I agree I can't say for sure that I would feel any better cutting out ALL non-animal foods/drinks - because you're right I haven't tried it - but I would like to. What does bring me to this forum is I do believe that the small quantity of veggies/wine I eat/drink really doesn't add much to my diet in terms of calories or I think nutrition - I have gone for periods of time whilst travelling only eating meat and felt the same. I think other people feel the same way here?

The sport issue - well - my jury's still out on that one. It may well be I can't do intense sport running off purely fat - but I DO know some people who CAN, and say it's the best.

Oh - and the main reason for the continued veggies - my husband doesn't like rare or raw meat, and I don't shop everyday. I can't get my vitamin C from raw meat everyday, so I eat some from vegetables. But that is the only reason. Raw meat and no veggies is great too.

adwred

Hey Meg or Rob, can we get this thread moved? Wink

Thanks!

ReddyMcMeaty

This thread has become wildly off topic from the original post. Please continue to argue about whether fat is public enemy number 1 or not in this section.

adwred

Thank you! Happy

koch900

LOOPS

well this is interesting. I don't have constipation but I do put that down to a rather generous intake of magnesium supplementation. It's very good to hear that I might not need this forever. BTW being deficient in magnesium is said to take a long time to fix - this can cause constipation as well.

koch900

Yeah, LOOPS, I was taking magnesium for a while to combat constipation, and I didn't like the consistency of my stools during this time. They were too soft and slippery, just as they have been when I have tried herbal laxatives (maybe I was taking too much?). I felt like this was contributing to muscle weakness in my colon, because the turds just kind of slimed their way out, as opposed to being pushed out by intestinal contractions.

If I'm taking any laxative-like products these days, it has to be a hydrophillic (water-attracting) one. This type of laxative simply keeps stools hydrated so they don't become hard and dry. Hard stools can lead to some heavy-duty intestinal damage. Also, hydrophillic laxatives don't create a dependance, as the colon gets stronger through mechanically propelling the stools. And the stools don't become slimey!

The only product I know of that does this is Hydro-C, created by the author of Fiber Menace. This guy, quite literally, knows his sh**! Laugh

Also, gelatin does the same thing. I like getting my gelatin from bone broths made w/ lots of animal feet.

Does magnesium do this to you, too?

LOOPS

Magnesium attracts water into the intestine (it absorbs huge amounts of it apparently if there is an excess). Well - how can I put this - I have had urm, explosive stuff going on with Mg - but only if I've taken too much. It seems to be a fine line. Actually if I DON'T take Mg or enough of it my stools seem slimey and hard to get out (urk) - I get this travelling a lot. I assume it's dehydration.

I probably take too much because I do go every day, sometimes more than once and I read you shouldn't really need to do this. But then see magnesium does really help my depression and to some extent anxiety so I'd hate to give it up.

how can i be dehydrated? inconceivable?!

zero carb vs. vlc

Re: zero carb vs. vlc

Re: zero carb vs. vlc