| Archive for Active No-Carber Forums A veggie-free zone |
| adwred |
Glucose shortens life and more proof antioxidants suckInteresting article that was posted on the fasting forum:http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071002131149.htm *snip* (bolding mine)
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| brklx |
Red, thank you for the link.
I have been saying it for a while that using supplements is trying to improve on nature with disastrous results. |
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| johndela1 |
Isn't a a huge jump to say what is good for worms is good for us? | ||||
| adwred |
Maybe. But not really.  This study is about mitchondria and we have the same mitochondria as worms. When you break it down to such tiny elements, we're not really so different. And it's just beginning research. What do you want to bet they get the same results when they do it on lab mice? And then monkeys? I see what you're saying, but at the same time, we have plenty of proof that excess glucose has a negative effect on humans - so it's really not such a huge leap at all. And I bet if there were a study done on worms that supports antioxidants and glucose, no one would have any trouble accepting it.
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| Boondawgle |
Absolutely true and a perpetual problem when discussing diet with folks that get most of their information from popular media. When most folks hear a statement that supports their beliefs, they immediately accept it without challenge, even when there is no supporting evidence or even when the supporting evidence is clearly garbage. But when they hear a statement that challenges their beliefs, the first reaction is to deny it and start looking for how they can show it's wrong. |
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| salviaforme |
I agree completely, most people are just repeaters. they repeat to others what they have been told. Something i was guilty of myself. This is an interesting study, and i have no doubt excess glucose is bad for you, especially the effect it has on the immune system. I went 0 carb for about 2 weeks, but started to feel very weak, and my legs began shaking. So now i am low carb, but i get brain fog after eating carbs, so i am really undecided whether 0 carb or low carb is the way to go. Seems a bit strange that humans were not designed to eat some carbs though. |
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| Max Thunder |
Antioxidants SUCK!
But I believe that if one were to eat say, fruits such as blueberries, then that one would benefit from the antioxidants, as they would counter-balance some of the effects of glucose. When not needed, antioxidants probably cause more harm than good. I will never take any antioxidant or these multi-vitamins! I believe thought there are some individual vitamins/minerals that can help in specific situations. |
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| cygnus |
Antioxidants Rule,..I am in the vitamin business. I make vitamins and sell them and have had the great pleasure of seeing the amazing benefits from literally hundreds of people who have taken them.
In fact the older I get and the longer I do this, I think Antioxidants may be just as in important as adequate levels of Vitamins and minerals/ Here is a great piece from Michael Mooney who is one of the top researchers of "alternative" medicine regarding these studies saying antioxidants don't work. http://www.michaelmooney.net/RebutalAntioxidantStudies.htm The overwheling evidence in regards to compounds such as Alpha Lipoic Acid,Co q10, AC+E (just to name a few) on their efficacy cannot be ignored or overlooked. It is ones own choice to decide if they need supplementation or not. But to say they are worthless or they suck, is just not true and a little short sighted. As far as safety, no one has ever died from vitamin supplementation..no one. Yes some of the fat soluble vitamins can cause toxic effects if taken above recommended levels, but vitamins are extremely safe...and effective. |
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| adwred |
Cygnus, if you're curious as to why I'm so anti-antioxidant, then go to this site http://wisewitch.blogspot.com/ and search the word antioxidants. There are so many eye-opening articles and links and Emma summarizes them better than I ever could. Obviously not all antioxidants are bad - cholesterol, for example, is totally essential to life - it's mostly flavanoids and plant antioxidants that I'm weary of. There is growing proof (and not just in this one study - your Michael Mooney will have to rebut a hell of a lot more than that one article) that many of those antioxidant compounds are something the body wants to flush out as quickly as it can. Not surprising. They act on the very same pathways that other toxins do.
I'm not going to hold my breath for you to click on that above link - you seem to already have your mind made up on the subject, which is fine - but just know that antioxidant supplementation is not something that everyone will benefit from and some people will probably do really badly on them. And I have a really hard time believing that anyone benefits from flavanoids, in particular.
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| adwred |
There is absolutely no way you can know that. Supplementation with anything doesn't happen in a vacuum - supplements cause a mosaic of chain reactions that can have a whole constellation of effects in the body and on other cofactors. There is no way anyone can assert that they have never caused death, directly or indirectly. That is actually kind of a tiny bit irresponsible, to me. I know you're not suggesting everyone take just anything, willy nilly, but some supplements can really hurt some people. I'm not saying all supplements are totally worthless, but I'm also saying that you have to be very mindful about what you recommend, IMO. |
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| johndela1 |
cygnus,
why not just adjust your diet to include the necessary vitamins? When I give people advise on their nutrition, I always tell them to get their nutrition from food. Here is an article that summarizes a lot of why I don't take or recommend supplements: http://www.3.waisays.com/ |
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| Max Thunder |
"Antioxidants rule; I'm in the vitamin business".
At first I tought it was a joke. Here is my opinion: "Antioxidants suck; I'm in the meat business. I'm a carnivore, that is." Are you a carb eater cygnus? |
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| cygnus |
I am very aware of Wai Says, and of course I don't agree with alot of what is written..low protein, dried fruit,bananas are just a start. Plus as far as the views on supplementation all I can say is.."show me the research",, they can't. There are literally 10's of thousands of peer reviewed, published studies on the benefits of supplementation.
Here is a quick one. A long term study with over 800 senior citizens were tested for bone growth..one group was placebo, the other group , 3 glasses of milk a day, the third grup 1,250 mgs of plain ol' calcium carbonate..calcium from the earth. First group lost 2% of their bone. Second group lost 1%. the third group GREW bone by 3% in their hip and spine..2 of the densest locales for bone..phenomanal!!! The reason we should suplement these days is because of our food. A large majority of us do not harvest our own veggies or free range eggs or slaughter our grass fed cows. There are so many other things to consider as far as the nutritive value of our food. Storage, Transit time( a huge component) the way food is prepared and the way our bodies process foods to obtain these vitamins. I agree food always first, but remember all vitains and minerlas are bound to proteins and other compounds that the body must "break down" to obtain these compounds. A lot of the nutritients are lost this way. USP vitamins are free form and unbound and readily absorbed. They are bioidentical to 'natural ' vitamins found in food In fact Folate found in food is very poorly absorbed while the USP vitamin abosorbs 40% better. Here is a doozey. I have polycythemia due to HRT. I have to give theraputic phlebotomies to lower my RBC's. I have to have my Iron levels checked before I have the therapy each time. The first time I went in, I was told I was anemic. ME! the red meat eating, dessicated liver munching carnivore. So I was sent away.. I took 2 weeks and increased my dose of Iron Carbonyl...long story short, I was within range that next scheduled therapy. I am not trying to talk anybody into supplementing. But I think it certainly has its place, it is not harmful, has not been disasturous and helps alot of people and at times is absolutley necessary. Beside there was an estimated 53 billion doses last year of supplements and no one was hurt..pretty good safety level I'd say |
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| cygnus |
no Max thunder I am not..
I am a huge proponet of Meat..I eat it everyday and I take vitamins everyday.. But your "assertion" that antioxidants suck is foolhardy and based on what?? I can't even begin to tell you how many people I know, who eat low carb and still can't get their blood sugar down, who take Alpha Lipioc Acid and get off their medication like Glucophage?? Yeah I gues ALA sucks in that regard...compound sthat lower blood sugar and get people off their dangerous meds is a sucky proposition. How about the numerous people I have encountered with congestive heart failure who have gotten considerably better taking Co-Q10? I'm sure I can be a carnivore and a vitamin guy or is that sacrilegious?? |
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| cygnus |
Red,
I think you are an absolutely well informed and astute person, and I always love to read what you write and what you have to say. But what Emma has to say isn't what the research shows. Who is Emma? What has she done? Where is her peer reviewed, published studies?? This is no more than pseudo-science..ones belief, ones philosophy, a lot like some of the things that Wai says. People try to rewrite basic nutritional science...I remember months ago Rob(who is no longer here) saying that there was a myth with Omega 3's and I know alot of people follow this same philosophy from Ray Peat..but it's just not so I am a very open minded person and I have been in this business for sooo long and I have seen everything come and go in regards to the new fangle supplement to the latest diet. I have met everyone from Udo Erasmus to Sally Fallon and have been to a ton of seminars by some of the biggest names in the industry. Do I buy everything they push?? No, but what I do, is take what makes sense and what can be backed by good scientific research and try to apply that to my business and for my customers that I help. As far as toxicity concerned..yes some people are more sensitive to some compounds as others, but as far as being toxic.. Here are some researched mimimum toxic level findings for vits and minerals. Vit C.none..excess vit c intake can lead to loose bowels Vit D 50,000 IUs Vit E 1,200 Vit K None Found Folic Acid 400,000 mcg B-12 none found Calcium 12,000 mgs Chromium None found Molybdenum None found Maganese None found Magnesium 6,000 mgs Zinc 500 mgs. These are just a few... and these numbers are well above what are contained in any multi.. The multi that I have come across that contains the most Vit D. has 1,000 Iu's.. the RDA is 400. I believe through science and just my real world experience that most people would benefit from supplementation which does include a complete comprehensive antioxidant formula that contains ALA, Co q-10,DMAE, PABA, NAC, SOD , Vits A, C+ E and yes some flavanoids like Olive leaf,Gingko, Pine Park and Grape Seed. I'm not tryig to be a weenie here, but why is it that wine and booze are all good, yet a health promoting supplement is toxic and sucks?? |
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| Puma |
I get eggs, butter, organs and fat from pastured animals, but I still take a little cod liver oil. It has butter oil and rosemary oil in it as well...no problems to speak of here, only improvement from taking it. I can see where people could take about how supplements suck though, if you took one of those vitamin/mineral 'substitutes' that absorb poorly or have side-effects, such as D2 versus D3. | ||||
| adwred |
Well, no disrespect, Cygnus, but if you'd bothered to click the link, you'd know exactly who Emma is and what she's done and you'd also see that it leads to a collection of peer-reviewed published studies, not just one person pontificating needlessly about something.
I'm not trying to convince you, Cygnus, but just know that I don't agree whatsoever with your opinions about supplementation being completely harmless and only beneficial and it kind of scares me that someone who has been in the business for 'so long' would actually believe that. You should know as much as anyone that supplements are tremendously powerful and can be just as harmful as they are helpful. |
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| cygnus |
Nothing is completely harmless Red, but the fact of the matter is, the track record for the safety of taking supplements is overwhelmingly in its favor. It is one fo the safest (and helpful) things one can do for themselves..period
Now if someone were to take 3 times the recommeded dose of a particluar compound or if a child were to swallow a bottle of multis, then yes, there could be problems. And I know everyone is unique and we all do not respond the same way to different compounds. But to say antioxidants are toxic that is really a stretch...we need them in abundance to fight free radicals, enviromental toxins(and estrogens) and the stresses of eveyday life. But the judicious use of supplements and even those taken at theraputic levels are extremely safe. In fact in all of my years I have never seen an adverse reaction other than nausea...or from someone who had a sensitivity to Ephedra. Hell Orthomoleclular Nutrition is based on optimal, dose effective ingredients to overcome deficiencies , treat mental illnesses and improve overall health. Orthomolecular Nutrition was penned by Nobel Peace Prize winner Linus Pauling and is followed by 10,000's of doctors world wide. Like I said,,Food first, then supplement. But I feel it is irreponsible of you to say that supplementing is dangerous when that is just not the case at all. |
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| adwred |
Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.  I'm not in the health industry, so what I think isn't likely to affect too many people, negatively or otherwise.
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