| Archive for Active No-Carber Forums A veggie-free zone |
| Kristi31 |
Food for thought...Calorieshttp://www.livinlowcarbdiscussion.com/showthread.php?tid=488 All-Meat diet http://tinyurl.com/6nr5gv By the way, I totally agree with Charles...Keep it simple and stupid just like with the theory of evolution. The simplest theories are often the most comprehensive and closest to the truth. At least, that's my belief. |
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| opticon107 |
Someone on there said:
"Calorie restriction without carb restriction results in weight GAIN" LOL well im glad someone defies the laws of physics. I can understand a "no change" (people with metabolic disorders...thyroid..etc) but sorry no you are not gaining weight in a true caloric deficit (no matter what the composition of your diet) which implies that this person is spontaneously creating energy to store out of thin air. They must be very talented. |
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| adwred |
Usually when people gain on a VLC diet, it's because of rebound binges. And the binges don't actually have to be that big, but the body is so starved that it holds on to any extra. | ||||||
| adwred |
*And by VLC I mean very low calorie. | ||||||
| opticon107 |
when someone says they're eating in deficit I'm assuming they aren't bingeing. deficit = less calories than your body needs. If you add bingeing to that of course you are going to gain weight - from the bingeing - not from eating in deficit.
also, a carbohydrate rich 'binge' (refeed) after a period of low calories is beneficial to ramp up the body's hormones such as leptin levels and thyroid conversion and can also get rid of any water retention due to low calories (more cortisol = body holds more water) after the initial carbo bloat is gone 1-2 days after the refeed. The body doesn't necessary 'hold on extra' because it is starved, unless we're talking about actual starvation here, not simple caloric restriction. |
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| adwred |
No, you can still be in caloric deficit and gain on a low-calorie diet. The way this happens is that your body is in deficit, calorie-wise - you burn LM as a result. Then when you have a binge or refeed (the total of which is still within what would have been a deficit, had you been eating the same amount in a steady stream the whole time), you gain fat. The body is storing and release fat, all the time. It's not impossible to store fat in a calorie deficit, at all.
It's not as simple as calories in, calories out. Your hormonal situation and how much you're exercising, the breakdown of what you're eating and the state of you blood glucose will all play a role in how your body manages food and calories. |
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| Kristi31 |
I just think, like Charles, that if one eats protein and fat only, one's weight will become optimal for that person considering their age, hormonal environment, lifestyle, sex, etc. Of course, this only holds true if all other bodily functions work well like thyroid, adrenal, etc.
Some can get away with more carbs. In the end, the body chooses what the best weight is for you, not YOU. We often have unrealistic goals, especially us women, due to societal pressure and culture. Caloric deficit is just frustrating and unhealthy. Unnatural as well. One should eat according to appetite and not start counting this and that. Eat when hungry, up to satiety. Keep it simple. More and more, I am thinking that the conversion of amino acids to glucose is dependent on the body's need for it and the situation it's in. More protein (i.e. in excess of what is needed) doesn't mean the body will make more glucose and remain dependent on glucose. Like Bear, I think fat eventually replaces LM as a source of glucose (i.e. glycerol) for those organs that need it when enough ketones are produced in the body and when fatty acids are mobilized thanks to lower levels of insulin. When fat reserves are exhausted, as can happen in famine or fasting, protein takes over in the form of LM or, theoretically speaking, dietary protein (without any fat), if one lives on protein only. It would take a whole lot of "zero-fat" or pure protein to preserve LM and provide the glucose necessary. Plus, the by products of protein would wreak havoc on the system and the energy it takes to digest protein is greater than that provided by protein...RABBIT STARVATION. Shredding of LM would eventually lead to death as would rabbit starvation. In a nutshell, if fat cannot provide enough glucose, protein will take over. If one were to eat just enough carbs so that most fats ingested, along with body fat, would be stored, that would make it impossible for fats to provide glucose such that protein would take over. Sometimes, fats aren't mobilized due to a hormonal "milieu" that has gone haywire. So, this could theoretically happen, even in the total absence of dietary carbs. So, perhaps, one stops losing weight not because of excess protein but because the remaining fat cannot be mobilized due to excess CARBS. And in that situation, since protein provides the necessary glucose (because fat cannot), one mistakenly blames that for their weight stall instead of carbs. Get it? I just have a hard time believing in something where you have to control so many variables, count how much fat or protein or carbs, to attain an optimal health and weight. It just doesn't make sense. I tend to believe in things that are simpler. We, humans, like to complicate things when there is no need to. Can you see our paleolithic ancestors doing that, the counting and all? They just ate what they got their hands on. So do animals and they do perfectly well. Eat your fatty meats and enjoy life. If you still can't attain good health/weight, then find out how your body's systems are doing, whether there is an anomaly anywhere. I could be 100% wrong but something inside of me, call it instinct if you will, tells me, the simplest diet composed of meat and unprocessed animal fat, preferably raw, is what is best suited to "woman" (usually they say man in reference to humans so for once, let's say woman  ). That's why I always go back to just eating meat. It just seems so natural to me. The only thing missing was salt, I think because we just don't have access to the blood where all the salt (and iodine??) would be.
Salted fatty meat and after 2 days, no problems to speak of. I think we often ignore our body's infinite and precious wisdom. We think too much and make things unnecessarily complicated. Train yourself to listen to your body again. Life becomes so much more enjoyable. But, until you don't give up artificial stuff and the extra carbs that are too much for YOU (an individual thing), your body will not give you the right signals. So, you need to help the body help you...sound familiar?! And then your body will SHOW YOU THE WAY! I want you to shout at your body..."SHOW ME THE WAY!!!!!, SHOW ME THE WAY!!!", LOUDER... 
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| opticon107 |
no matter what kind of diet you do, if you are unhappy with the way you look (i.e. you ate 'unnaturally' when you weren't hungry and gained a bunch of fat and raised your natural set point to an unnatural level over the years) then you are going to have to cut calories to lose weight. end of story. It may be uncomfortable for a few weeks or months, but if you succeed and you don't screw up again and eat when you're not really hungry then you just may never have to do it again (calorie restriction).
anyways, I only eat when i'm hungry, but sometimes I eat when i'm not hungry, just because its been oh 12 hours since i last ate and I'm still not a twinge hungry at all. If I left it up to my body I would eat once every 2 days, so I guess my body is showing me the way back to my own natural weight. |
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| Kristi31 |
I disagree. On protein/fat only, no matter how much you eat, you will not gain beyond what is optimally desirable, at least long-term. There may be slight fluctuations from day to day, of course. If you eat in excess of what your body needs on protein/fat only, you just won't be hungry for a longer time. Setpoint depends on what you provide it with. Carbs will shift that setpoint, protein/fat will bring it back it down to something that is best for the body's health. I don't think starving intentionally or eating less is healthy unless one is sick and just not hungry in which case the body needs to heal rather than digest.
When you eat less, you are hungry. That's your body telling you need nutrients and I'm not referring to situations where one craves carbs cause that completey screws up the body's signals. If you continue eating less despite your body's natural signals, then I don't see this action as being any beneficial for your health, weight or psyche. Your body knows best. You probably won't agree with the above but let's at least agree to disagree. 
Debating is so much fun, isn't it?!
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| jl53563 |
Very nice post, Kristelle. I agree 100%. Hormones play a huge roll in all of this. Women seem to have more hormonal issues than men. I think that if we give our bodies proper nutrition, our bodies will be as healthy as they can be. I think it's very possible that our healthy bodies may not look like we want them to. Perhaps those last few vanity pounds that some of us can't seem to lose serve a purpose and are actually healthy. Just a thought. |
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| opticon107 |
yeah, well at least for myself, I can say that I did gain beyond what was optimal on protein/fat only, and when i did the strict M&E, I never ever lost anything that I unnaturally gained when I overate PB for emotional reasons (not due to hunger). I actually ended up gaining an extra 5-7 lbs on top of it! I was much hungrier on M&E than I am now, I suspect its due to not being fully 'fat adapted' and running on glycogen with a perpetually near-empty liver, which constantly provides hunger signals. But yes, we can agree to disagree That's fine with me. It's always nice to see both sides of an argument for others on this board - to help them make decisions that are not biased towards a certain WOE.
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| opticon107 |
According to lyle mcdonald, women do seem to 'hormonally crash' harder than men on a low calorie and/or low carbohydrate diet. T4-->T3 conversion slows down much faster in women, and leptin levels drop faster. |
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| Kristi31 |
Opticon,
Eggs sometimes lead to weight stall as evidenced by Charles's experience. He lost a few pounds after dropping his usual 2-3 eggs per day. Did you ever eat just fatty meat and nothing else?? Also, eggs aren't that satiating, at least compared to fatty meats. That may be the reason why you were hungry on M&E. Try meat alone for at least a couple of weeks with NO cheats and then we'll talk. That's if you don't mind just eating meat.
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| Trem |
I think you may be onto something with the salt Kristi. I'd kind of always followed what Bear had to say about salt being 'toxic' up until recently. The biggest changes I've noticed since adding it is better energy and better digestion. | ||||||
| Nicola |
[quote="Trem"]I think you may be onto something with the salt Kristi. I'd kind of always followed what Bear had to say about salt being 'toxic' up until recently. The biggest changes I've noticed since adding it is better energy and better digestion.[/quote]
Hi Trem, What do you call "better digestion" - digestion takes place in the stomach or do you mean metabolism? So what do you think "works" better? Many start and stop with salt because they just end up holding water as one affect of extra salt; so you have noticed... Nicola |
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| Avalon |
Kristi wrote:
That's funny because I used eggs yesterday to break my carb stall 
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| Trem |
Digestion that takes place in the stomach. I think it's best to lightly salt the meat but not put a whole lot of salt on it. I've noticed the water retention if too much salt is added, so only in moderation. Kristi made a good point with the absence of added salt(from blood) in the meat that we eat now. |
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| Kristi31 |
Digestion takes place in the stomach AND the small intestines.
I think one has to find a balance and keep sodium just high enough so that water retention doesn't become a problem. Salt in moderation, as Trem said. Also, I think if one keeps the salt content more or less constant, the body adapts. |
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| Kristi31 |
Avalon,
While eggs may have helped you, it also depends on what you were eating before. If you add eggs after eating zero-carb for awhile vs if you add eggs after eating higher-carb foods. |
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| adwred |
Eggs are a totally nutritious food and an amazing source of amino acids and to cut them out because they contain trace carbs is totally misguided, IMO. Would you cut out all animal foods that are full of nutrients, just because they aren't muscle meat, like organs and blood, too? Just a few days ago, you were singing the praises of offal and shellfish, Kristi. They all contain carbs.
Considering fat and protein can be (and are, all the time) both synthesized into glucose shows how silly it is to avoid an egg because it contains 0.6 g of carb. If you have a sensitivity to eggs, then obviously, don't eat them - but to avoid them because of carbs?? Hey, Kristi, if you feel you can live a full life eating nothing but raw shortribs and drinking nothing but water, then more power to you, but OMG.  Live a little! Eat an egg! 
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| opticon107 |
Yeah I did have a couple of meat only days, but i wasn't trying to do it, I just ran out of eggs
As for trying that again...I'm going to have to pass on that. I will never go back to a zero carb diet again as long as I can help it. I'm definitely a carb type or whatever, because I lose more weight and have more energy when I'm eating carbs. When I do zero carb, my thyroid gets sluggish and I get subclinical hypothyroidism (or euthyroid sick syndrome), I have NO energy, not even enough to walk around, and I'm overall miserable, depressed, I gain weight (by the way these are probably all due to my thyroid being suppressed). So yeah...no more ZC for me ever. I do have to avoid eggs now anyway, because they are a major trigger food for my gastritis. The yolks cause insane flare ups, even just one. Most fatty foods do, so I'm forced to eat pretty low-ish fat, although I still have zero appetite. The only fats I can tolerate are those in (whole) nuts like brazil nuts and almonds and the fats in fish like sardines and salmon. Everything else (thats fatty) feels like swallowing a flame-thrower. As for "living a little" with regard to diet, I agree - restrictions on certain foods tend to make one obsessive about it. So unless I can't eat a certain food for health reasons (like it flares up my gastritis) then I don't restrict anymore. I eat what I want when I'm hungry and in moderation. This even goes for desserts every once in a while. The less rules you place on yourself, the less you'll think about food and the more time you will have to enjoy other aspects of life. |
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| Kristi31 |
Hey Red,
Eggs, offal and shellfish all contain very absorbable and important nutrients. True. But I'm starting to realize (perhaps wrongly) that muscle meat (fish or red meat) contains all one needs with perhaps some liver, although I'm not 100% sure about that one yet. Inuits, Masai and paleolithic humans would certainly not eat alot of those for the simple reason that it would have to be shared amongst its members and there would be very little of it to begin with. There is only 1 heart per animal, add to that sharing it and you end up with very little. Whereas there is plenty of muscle meat. There also wouldn't be much shellfish or eggs and that certainly was not a staple of early humans' diet. And yet, despite having little of those things, they would thrive in a harsh environment. How about that?! Stefansson also stated that mostly muscle meat was consumed by the Inuits (at least the ones he encountered) and if I recall correctly, some organs were never eaten including the intestines which some other people claim they did (certain Inuits probably did but not all of them). It has also been stated many time by many different authors who actually lived with them that fruits and plants were not much liked by Inuits. Probably something to eat if nothing else is available. Like in Paleolithic times. I didn't think like that a couple of weeks ago. True. I changed my mind and I do quite often. True. But I'm just trying to make sense of things and part of getting to the truth, while never quite getting to it completely, is exploring different paths, contemplating different scenarios, different theories and coming up with what makes the most sense. I'm human, I will change my mind and make mistakes in the process. I might still be wrong. Time will tell. But, often, as I mentioned before, I find the simplest of theories are the closest the truth consistent with Occam's razor "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best." The reason I would cut organ meats and eggs and shellfish and even fish is because they are either too carby (even a little carb can derail things as I've discovered and read) and/or contain too little fat which I believe should come from unprocessed animal sources like bone marrow or suet which I both dislike. Fatty muscle meats contain no carb and all the fat I need. I'm still on the fence about liver but a little from time to time certainly wouldn't hurt. Eating eggs, organ meats or shellfish daily could. Notice I said "could" and not "would". It depends on the person's metabolism and their goals. I think the idea that protein always converts to glucose when in excess is wrong. It only converts when blood sugar levels fall below what is needed for the body and when fat cannot bring back those sugar levels up to a normal level. The process of protein->glucose conversion is time-consuming and is only an emergency type of fuel. 58% only means the percentage of protein that is POTENTIALLY capable of converting the glucose should the need arise. There are two situations in which blood glucose would be rising: 1) carb ingestion 2) blood sugars rising to normal level because they were too low, coming from fat OR protein should fat reserves or dietary fat be absent. When one switches to ketones, the normal blood glucose levels go down because the need for the body becomes much less. The glucose required will come from the remaining carbs consumed and fat OR just fat if one is on a zero-carb diet. The protein is always a last resort. So basically, eating protein and fat is certainly not equivalent (I think, just my opinion) in any way to eating carbs. Carbs always become glucose and will raise blood glucose levels ABOVE normal. Fat and protein (if need be) will only become glucose if levels are BELOW normal. Not the same thing. With fat and protein ONLY, you are guaranteed to never go above normal glucose levels and thus never trigger insulin although insulin may still be triggered for awhile as part of a conditioning process to avoid hyperglycemic episodes (from your high-carb days) in which case blood glucose will fall and be restored thanks to fat. If eating just meat and drinking water brings me health and a sense of well-being, I'm happy and for me, this is living! I need no other food. You know, the same could be said of you by high-carb people...live a little! I think, in the end, each decides for themselves and we have no right to judge them for that or impose our lifestyle onto them. Respect, above all. If something makes me happy, it will not necessarily make someone else happy. We're all different. I accept that. I would hope others would do the same. I certainly am not claiming that I know the truth. I'm still learning and will be learning for the rest of my life. I'm just here to share and listen. Sometimes, I will agree, disagree and change my mind. That's called learning, being human. That's all. 
We are EACH an invaluable source of information and together, we can hopefully come closer to the truth and a healthier, happier version of each us, inside and out. Take care, Kristelle
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| Kristi31 |
Opticon,
As long as you are healthy and happy...that's what counts. But this has nothing to do with science or what is optimal for humans as a species. In your case, you may have had problems that prevented you from from benefiting from a zero-carb diet or perhaps, you should have tried sticking longer with a truly zero-carb diet. But, I understand...you feel better now and less restricted so choose to follow that path...like I said, to each their own! I like my way the most and definetly don't feel restricted, at least for now and you like your way the most, at least for now. Things can and often do change so let's see... When you said you got hypothyroidism, was that self-diagnosed or actually confirmed by several tests? Often, symptoms that are associated with one thing are associated with another as well. I've made many mistakes in self-diagnosing myself for a bunch of things, to later realize that I was completely off the mark. I guess in the end, you choose what works best for you. Take care, opticon.
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| opticon107 |
Thanks Kristelle, I agree, to each his own. My hypothyroidism was diagnosed by my doctor and I was prescribed Synthroid, but by the time they actually prescribed it I was already on my way to recovery, eating carbs again for almost a month. I really wanted to avoid the meds and so I eventually felt better after about 6 weeks with moderate carbs, and I had a bad experience with synthroid so I stopped taking that after a few days anyway. Also, I didn't have autoimmune thyroid problems, just 'euthyroid sick syndrome' which happens in cases of starvation, anorexia, low carbohydrate intake, and extreme sickness. I was eating well above my maintenance calories on ZC most of the time in an attempt to get energy somehow and feel better so it wasn't due to low calories, just lack of carbohydrate. I personally don't believe it would have been in my best interest, health wise, to continue doing ZC, that's why I changed. |
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| Avalon |
Kristi wrote:
I think it's safe to say that if you were born a Paleo child by the Sea, you'd be eating more fish and shellfish. If you were born an Inuit you'd be eating an Inuit's Diet. I think this is where generalizations can go wrong. How many people that celebrate the Inuit Diet are truly eating the Inuit way. Boiling Soups with salt water and fatty Seal? Or the Masai? And someone being born inland had a completely different Diet and people have lived this way for all time, differently. Carby people, meaty people and carby meaty people. So I guess what I'm saying is that shellfish could have been a staple if you were living at water's edge. And many believe it was those who did live by the water and ate fish benefited from increased brain growth because of that very diet. So you, may actually owe your brain size to those shellfish eating Paleo peoples. And not to push Calorie Restriction, but I'm thinking more and more that that, may be the most important piece of the puzzle. Whether you eat carbs, meat or not- restrict your calories now and again. And the longer you do this the better chance one has to benefit from it. Or, Not
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| Kristi31 |
I don't think calorie restriction is the solution to optimal weight. One has to address the root of the problem by either cutting carbs, sometimes completely to solve the insulin problem or find out if anything else in the body is not working well. Calories restriction is certainly not healthy, very frustrating, slows down your metabolism and eventually leads to more weight gain. This has been shown time and time again in people whether in studies or in real life.
I take back what I said about shellfish. There were probably people who lived on lots of seafood but I suspect that they ate more fish than shellfish because of the fat, easier catch and because today's people have more intolerances to shellfish than fish. So, personally, I see shellfish as more a side dish than a main one. |
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| Kristi31 |
I really don't think thyroid problems would be the result of low carb. Much of our history, humans lived low-carb. If it were to produce such problems, our species wouldn't have survived and would have to either make a diet change or die. Not the case. Perhaps, it was a lack of iodine or too much of it. I do think that salt is necessary and perhaps iodine (still not sure about that one). |
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| Trem |
Calorie restriction is probably the best bet to take off weight temporarily, but it is just that - temporarily. It will usually lead to a binge which makes the weight loss operation basically useless. | ||||||
| Trem |
Opti - have you tried supplementing with Iodine? Salt, seafood, and kelp are good sources. Most of what I've read about thyroid problems have to do with an iodine deficiency. | ||||||
| opticon107 |
yes i originally tried supplementing with iodine but no luck. It was not until I was eating carbs again for 6 weeks that I felt better, and my TSH came down from hypo 5.85 to a normal 1.634
along with iodine I researched all the nutrients essential to thyroid like selenium, zinc, potassium, B6, vitamin E, etc and supplemented with all of them as well. Like i said before, no luck until I added carbs. Sorry but you guys can try to convince yourselves that my condition wasn't caused by lack of carbs, but I know it was, for a fact. The difference I felt after adding carbs back in was immense. |
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| opticon107 |
Check out the studies in my thread: http://activenocarber.myfreeforum.org/about2559.html |
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| opticon107 |
I agree 100%
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| brklx |
I am glad somebody shines some light on the fallacy that 58% of protein will get converted to glucose. Gluconeogenesis is not an automatic or an easy process, it is the last solution the body resorts to when it needs glucose. And even then, glucose is made only on an as-needed basis ( the words of Dr Lutz). |
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| Avalon |
Perhaps you didn't understand my take on Calorie Restriction. Just about every bit of information on Calorie Restriction leads to the premise of longevity- living longer. And studying Longest lived cultures you'll see that CR is a common practice. It works for weight loss too if you adopt it as a lifestyle. Anyone wishing to lose weight will have to make some kind of change, somewhere long enough for the change to take place. But humans are weak and surrounded by temptation not to mention the old acculturation.
I went potato head as a last ditch WTF! Atkins Induction wasn't working any longer. My own Diet experiments were going nowhere fast and I have to say I owe my current weight loss to Elsie Widdowson. I've mentioned her before. One of the most important Women in Nutritional history. During WWII she helped create rations that were primarily Bread, Cabbage and Potato and said that a human could live healthfully on such a diet. Not long ago I was stuck in the low to mid 160s. Whatever I tried wasn't working. I thought, why not try the potatoes/Mary's-Mini thingy. I had no reason not to. To my amazement, not only do the pounds come off, but they fly off after a binge like never before. I do binge now and then 
People inject themselves with HCG for weight loss. I'll try the potato thank you very much. And just because this worked doesn't mean I don't believe in Ketosis. I do. It worked for me once very well. But years later, I don't know, I was having trouble. Tomorrow I may hit my target goal. A weight I haven't seen since the mid nineties. I have a new respect for the potato. I fear it no more. oh I don't feel so well  Just kidding!
oh and I'm not preaching. However if you really want to lose weight and your current method isn't working... 
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| Carnation |
Ava, your comments have got me wondering if anyone in the dieting crowd has tried doing some sort of completely rotational diet? Like do zc for a week, then veggie for a week, then high-protein low fat, and so on. Just curious. Maybe the shake-up in plans counts for something? | ||||||
| Kristi31 |
What usually confers the long life is the lack of carbs not calorie restriction. Fruit flies and many such long-lived animals including centenarrians (humans) have one thing in common, low insulin levels.
Of course, if one eats less on normal-carb diet, insulin will also be less stimulated and thus lead to a longer life. Restricting calories to live longer, not very pleasant. I'd rather live less but live happy and not be frustrated all the time. Restricting calories also implies restricting nutrients that your cells need, not so good for your overall health. In any case, if you are following a low-carb, you don't need to eat less...you naturally will and besides, even if you eat more, since your insulin is lower, longer life is more likely. In the end, I value more quality of life than quantity.
I also remember reading a few times that carbs lead to oxidative damage to cells quicker resulting in faster aging. So, the culprit seems to be carbs whichever way you look at it. |
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| Kristi31 |
Opticon,
The problems with these studies is that the diet was hypocaloric. When I eat, I eat much more than just 1200 calories. I eat as much as I want, not hypocaloric. Why not conduct the same study with normal calorie diets that have low carb? Tell the subjects to eat as much they want, just limit their carbs. Plus the sample size is small. There are many flaws with these studies. Were you restricting calories when eating low-carb? Not eating enough fat? |
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| opticon107 |
No, as I mentioned before, I was eating WAY over maintenance most days. I was OVEREATING meat and eggs because I was often hungry. I also ate for other reasons such as low energy and depression, or to try to comfort my stomach pains (which I now know are caused by food most of the time). I was also eating 75-85% fat, which was a mistake on my part because that was causing most of my stomach pains. Seriously, I know my thyroid issues were caused by a nonexistent carbohydrate intake. End of story. So please don't try to convince me that it was something else. I'm not the only person who got thyroid trouble from low/no carb, if you go to most other forums that are low carb there are always tons of thyroid threads. I didn't want to have to do this, but you guys keep insisting that low carbs don't affect thyroid. *** J Endocrinol Invest. 1982 Jan-Feb;5(1):47-52.Links Effect of dietary carbohydrates during hypocaloric treatment of obesity on peripheral thyroid hormone metabolism. Pasquali R, Parenti M, Mattioli L, Capelli M, Cavazzini G, Baraldi G, Sorrenti G, De Benedettis G, Biso P, Melchionda N. The effect of different hypocaloric carbohydrate (CHO) intakes was evaluated in 8 groups of obese patients in order to assess the role of the CHO and the other dietary sources in modulating the peripheral thyroid hormone metabolism. These changes were independent of those of bw. Serum T3 concentrations appear to be more easily affected than those of reverse T3 by dietary manipulation and CHO content of the diet. A fall in T3 levels during the entire period of study with respect to the basal levels occurred only when the CHO of the diet was 120 g/day or less, independent of caloric intake (360, 645 or 1200 calories). Moreover, reverse T3 concentrations were found increased during the entire period of study when total CHO were very low (40 to 50 g/day) while they demonstrated only a transient increase when CHO were at least 105 g/day (with 645 or more total calories). Indeed, our data indicate that a threshold may exist in dietary CHO, independent of caloric intake, below which modifications occur in thyroid hormone concentrations. From these results it appears that the CHO content of the diet is more important than non-CHO sources in modulating peripheral thyroid hormone metabolism and that the influence of total calories is perhaps as pronounced as that of CHO when a "permissive" amount of CHO is ingested. NCBI PubMed A service of the U.S. National Library of Medicine and the National Institutes of Health My NCBI [Sign In] [Register] * All Databases * PubMed * Nucleotide * Protein * Genome * Structure * OMIM * PMC * Journals * Books Search for Go Clear Advanced Search (beta) * Limits * Preview/Index * History * Clipboard * Details Display Show All: 6 Review: 0 Click to change filter selection through MyNCBI. Items 1 - 6 of 6 One page. 1: Metabolism. 1986 May;35(5):394-8. Related Articles, Links The effect of varying carbohydrate content of a very-low-caloric diet on resting metabolic rate and thyroid hormones. Mathieson RA, Walberg JL, Gwazdauskas FC, Hinkle DE, Gregg JM. Twelve obese women were studied to determine the effects of the combination of an aerobic exercise program with either a high carbohydrate (HC) very-low-caloric diet (VLCD) or a low carbohydrate (LC) VLCD diet on resting metabolic rate (RMR), serum thyroxine (T4), 3,5,3'-triiodothyronine (T3), and 3,5,3'-triiodothyronine (rT3). The response of these parameters was also examined when subjects switched from the VLCD to a mixed hypocaloric diet. Following a maintenance period, subjects consumed one of the two VLCDs for 28 days. In addition, all subjects participated in thrice weekly submaximal exercise sessions at 60% of maximal aerobic capacity. Following VLCD treatments, participants consumed a 1,000 kcal mixed diet while continuing the exercise program for one week. Measurements of RMR, T4, T3, and rT3 were made weekly. Weight decreased significantly more for LC than HC. Serum T4 was not significantly affected during the VLCD. Although serum T3 decreased during the VLCD for both groups, the decrease occurred faster and to a greater magnitude in LC (34.6% mean decrease) than HC (17.9% mean decrease). Serum rT3 increased similarly for each treatment by the first week of the VLCD. Serum T3 and rT3 of both groups returned to baseline concentrations following one week of the 1,000 kcal diet. Both groups exhibited similar progressive decreases in RMR during treatment (12.4% for LC and 20.8% for HC), but values were not significantly lower than baseline until week 3 of the VLCD. Thus, although dietary carbohydrate content had an influence on the magnitude of fall in serum T3, RMR declined similarly for both dietary treatments. Publication Types: * Research Support, U.S. Gov't, P.H.S. PMID: 3702673 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 2: Metabolism. 1980 Aug;29(  :721-7.
Related Articles, Links Click here to read Thyroid hormone homeostasis in states of relative caloric deprivation. O'Brian JT, Bybee DE, Burman KD, Osburne RC, Ksiazek MR, Wartofsky L, Georges LP. Starvation is accomplished by significant changes in the hypothalamic-pituitary-thyroid axis and in peripheral thyroid hormone metabolism. Less well studied, however, are the effects on thyroid hormone economy produced by hypocaloric feeding. We explored these changes in obese patients fed 200, 400, or 600 cal/day of either carbohydrate of protein for 28 days. T4' T3' reverse T3 and the TSH response to TRH were measured at frequent intervals. Each patient demonstrated a transient rise in reverse T3 and a fall in T2 that returned to near basal levels by the end of the study period. The TSH response to TRH on the other hand, declined to approximately 50% of control values and remained at that level throughout the course of study, regardless of the type of substrate or calorie level chosen. The results indicated that hypocaloric feeding is associated with changes in thyroid hormone economy similar to those in starvation and that peripheral (changes in T3 and rT3) and central (TRH response) events are controlled by separate mechanisms. Publication Types: * Research Support, U.S. Gov't, Non-P.H.S. PMID: 6772921 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 3: J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1976 Jan;42(1):197-200. Related Articles, Links Effect of caloric restriction and dietary composition of serum T3 and reverse T3 in man. Spaulding SW, Chopra IJ, Sherwin RS, Lyall SS. To evaluate the effect of caloric restriction and dietary composition on circulating T3 and rT3 obese subjects were studied after 7-18 days of total fasting and while on randomized hypocaloric diets (800 kcal) in which carbohydrate content was varied to provide from 0 to 100% calories. As anticipated, total fasting resulted in a 53% reduction in serum T3 in association with reciprocal 58% increase in rT3. Subjects receiving the no-carbohydrate hypocaloric diets for two weeks demonstrated a similar 47% decline in serum T3 but there was no significant change in rT3 with time. In contrast, the same subjects receiving isocaloric diets containing at least 50 g of carbohydrate showed no significant changes in either T3 or rT3 concentration. The decline in serum T3 during the no-carbohydrate diet correlated significantly with blood glucose and ketones but there was no correlation with insulin or glucagon. We conclude that dietary carbohydrate is an important regulatory factor in T3 production in man. In contrast, rT3 concentration is not significantly affected by changes in dietary carbohydrate. Our data suggest that the rise in serum rT3 during starvation may be related to more severe caloric restriction than that caused by the 800 kcal diet. Publication Types: * Research Support, U.S. Gov't, P.H.S. PMID: 1249190 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 4: J Endocrinol Invest. 1983 Apr;6(2):81-9. Related Articles, Links Relationships between iodothyronine peripheral metabolism and ketone bodies during hypocaloric dietary manipulations. Pasquali R, Baraldi G, Biso P, Pasqui F, Mattioli L, Capelli M, Callivá R, Spoto M, Melchionda N, Labò G. Relationships between iodothyronine and metabolic substrate metabolism during undernutrition were evaluated in four normal subjects who fasted for 48h (Group I) and in four groups (II to V) of obese patients who underwent selective dietary manipulations: 360 calories [carbohydrate (CHO) 40 g/day]; 800 calories containing respectively 19 g/day - ketogenic - (K) and 112 g/day - non ketogenic - (NK) of CHO; and a step-diet programme (during which total calories were progressively reduced from 2500 to 500). Serum T3 levels decreased significantly and constantly during fasting, 360 and 800 K studies, and transiently during the 800 NK diet. During the step-diet programme, a significant fall was found only when 1250 K or less were given. Conversely, serum reverse T3 rose significantly and constantly during 360 and 800 K diets, while a transient increase was found during the 800 NK diet. During the step-diet programme reverse T3 rose only when 750 calories were given. Ketogenesis developed in all studies but one (800 NK), and in the step-diet programme significantly below the 1000 calorie step. Other substrate modifications in each study were also evaluated. Serum T3 levels showed a significant correlation with ketone bodies (KB) in all the ketogenic studies, while no correlation was found in non ketogenic study (800 NK). During the step-diet programme ketone bodies and iodothyronine modifications appeared to be related to the amount of calories. Based on these results, we suggest a relationship between the dietary-induced modifications of iodothyronine metabolism and the development of ketogenesis. Publication Types: * Comparative Study PMID: 6863849 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 5: Metabolism. 1983 Jan;32(1):9-13. Related Articles, Links Adaptation to hypocaloric feeding: physiologic significance of the fall in serum T3 as measured by the pulse wave arrival time (QKd). Osburne RC, Myers EA, Rodbard D, Burman KD, Georges LP, O'Brian JT. We have investigated the physiologic significance of the decline in serum triiodothyronine (T3) occurring during hypocaloric feeding by measurement of changes in cardiovascular function. The QKd interval, the interval between the Q wave of the electrocardiogram and the onset of Korotkoff sounds at diastolic pressure at the brachial artery, is the sum of the preejection period and pulsetransmission time, and has proven to be a sensitive and effective measure of the effect of thyroid hormones on the cardiovascular system. Fifteen euthyroid obese volunteers underwent successive 2 wk periods of hypocaloric feeding (200-400 calories per day) interspersed with periods of at least 2 wk of re-feeding on a weight-maintaining diet (1500 calories). In a later phase subjects received oral supplementation of triiodothyronine (T3) in addition to the diet to prevent the fall in serum T3. In the last study phase, subjects on the diet received supplementation with oral thyroxine (T4), which prevented the fall in serum T3 and resulted in a slight increase in serum T4. During the first 2 wk period of hypocaloric feeding, there was a statistically significant increase in QKd, and a decrease in pulse rate, compatible with a hypothyroid state relative to initial measurements. When oral T3 supplementation was given, the rise in QKd and fall in pulse rate were prevented. Likewise, with oral T4 supplementation, the changes in QKd and pulse were prevented. Thus, the fall in serum T3 occurring during hypocaloric feeding is associated with changes in the cardiovascular system which are qualitatively similar to those observed during hypothyroidism. The present data, taken with other data in the literature, suggest that the decline in serum T3 during hypocaloric feeding may be an adaptive mechanism to conserve energy during caloric deprivation. Publication Types: * Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't PMID: 6848901 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 6: Metabolism. 1980 Oct;29(10):930-5. Related Articles, Links Click here to read The role of dietary fat in peripheral thyroid hormone metabolism. Otten MH, Hennemann G, Docter R, Visser TJ. Short term changes in serum 3,3',5-triiodothyronine (T3) and 3,3'5-triiodothyronine (reverse T3, rT3) were studied in four healthy nonobese male subjects under varying but isocaloric and weight maintaining conditions. The four 1500 kcal diets tested during 72 hr, consisted of: I, 100% fat; II, 50% fat, 50% protein; III, 50% fat, 50% carbohydrate (CHO), and IV, a mixed control diet. The decrease of T3 (50%) and increase of rT3 (123%) in the all-fat diet equalled changes noted in total starvation. In diet III (750 kcal fat, 750 kcal CHO) serum T3 decreased 24% (NS) and serum rT3 rose significantly 34% (p < 0.01). This change occurred in spite of the 750 kcal CHO. This amount of CHO by itself does not introduce changes in thyroid hormone levels and completely restores in refeeding models the alterations of T3 and rT3 after total starvation. The conclusion is drawn that under isocaloric conditions in man fat in high concentration itself may play an active role in inducing changes in peripheral thyroid hormone metabolism. Publication Types: * Comparative Study PMID: 7421583 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Items 1 - 6 of 6 One page. 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| Kristi31 |
The only study worth looking at is the following because it deals with an isocaloric diet and not a hypocaloric diet (who says calories restriction is not the causal factor?):
The role of dietary fat in peripheral thyroid hormone metabolism. Otten MH, Hennemann G, Docter R, Visser TJ. Short term changes in serum 3,3',5-triiodothyronine (T3) and 3,3'5-triiodothyronine (reverse T3, rT3) were studied in four healthy nonobese male subjects under varying but isocaloric and weight maintaining conditions. The four 1500 kcal diets tested during 72 hr, consisted of: I, 100% fat; II, 50% fat, 50% protein; III, 50% fat, 50% carbohydrate (CHO), and IV, a mixed control diet. The decrease of T3 (50%) and increase of rT3 (123%) in the all-fat diet equalled changes noted in total starvation. In diet III (750 kcal fat, 750 kcal CHO) serum T3 decreased 24% (NS) and serum rT3 rose significantly 34% (p < 0.01). This change occurred in spite of the 750 kcal CHO. This amount of CHO by itself does not introduce changes in thyroid hormone levels and completely restores in refeeding models the alterations of T3 and rT3 after total starvation. The conclusion is drawn that under isocaloric conditions in man fat in high concentration itself may play an active role in inducing changes in peripheral thyroid hormone metabolism. Interestingly, the diet with 50% protein, 50% fat, closest to a typical low-carb diet although lower in protein and higher in fat did not show any changes in T3. Only the 100% fat diet which no one follows and the 50/50 protein/carb diet which no one follows either. You were closest to diet II which in this study did not show any anomaly. I'm not doubting your thyroid results or what you're feeling. That is definetly not my intent. I believe everything you say and experienced!!! I'm just very doubtful that low carb or even zero carb with adequate protein causes hypothyroidism. Something else might have caused it or perhaps eating way too much fat and not enough protein, or something else...who knows? Did you ever try a higher protein and lower fat diet, like 60FAT and 40PROTEIN? |
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| Carnation |
What is that supposed to mean? |
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| jl53563 |
Also the words of Dr. Eades and Bear! |
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| opticon107 |
I can say from my own experience that a zero carb/very low carb diet with adequate calories does the exact same thing for me as some of these studies - thyroid conversion of t4-->t3 utilizes glucose and depends on liver glycogen - in another study I saw, they addressed the issue of gluconeogenesis but concluded that wasn't enough to power the conversion by itself. Sure, calorie restriction has an affect on it as well, but only if its under 1200 calories - even adding 50g carbs to an 800 calorie diet greatly improved t3 conversion. How do I know it was low carb almost exclusively that caused my problems? Well after adding carbs back in, my energy improved 1000x fold, I wasn't so depressed anymore, I didn't feel cold all the time anymore, and I finally started losing weight. My point? Maybe its me, I don't know, maybe I am a "carb type" but I do better with carbs, health-wise, than without. And yes, I tried all the ratios 50/50, 60/40, 70/30, 75/25, 80/20, even 90/10 in an attempt to feel better while low/zero carbing. Nothing made a difference. Although I severely regret doing the zero/low carb experiment, at least I can say I "learned my lesson." That's my personal opinion on it. low/zero carbing doesn't cause hypothyroidism per se, it causes euthyroid sick syndrome as I've been saying, or ESS. True hypothyroidism is often a result of autoimmune disorders such as Hashimoto's thyroiditis. Euthyroid sick syndrome does not warrant the need of thyroid meds, it is usually reversed by stopping whatever is causing it. The symptoms of ESS and hypo are essentially the same though, and if one doesn't do anything about their ESS I'm sure it can lead to greater complications, possibly true thyroid problems later in life. For all that do well on ZC and all their blood tests come back healthy - more power to you, thats great. |
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| Avalon |
Kristi:
I enjoy the certainty of truth in your posts. This is the way it is, sort of thing. But most of everything in this world is in a state of constant flux. Atoms are moving around and stuff. The reason that there is such a great diet debate is because the answers aren't written in stone. I have to giggle at your 'not very pleasant' remark because I am totally enjoying the ride I'm on at the moment. I love a raw yolk over a mound of mashed potatoes! I'm enjoying eating Baked Beans and Stewed Tomatoes over Jasmine rice or a bowl of Oatmeal with Banana, Blueberries and cinnamon! These are all low calorie foods and my joy factor is registering 11 (for all you SpinalTap fans ).
There's a town called Sardinia where people drink wine, eat meat and cheese and have many centenarians. Then there's Okinawa where people eat about 16-1800 calories a day, highly plant based and Carby with some lard and porky soups thrown in. However all this is changing with the Fast Food movement in swing. Carnation, not long ago I thought of a Diet called the Diet wheel. The the wheel of fortune and you spin it to see what you'd be eating. Just like you said. If we were nomads, moving from place to place, that's probably how we lived. Fruit when you could find it, meat when you could catch it and plant food where ever it grew. There is no logic to the idea that Man evolved to eat only meat. I mean the planet is full of food. All kinds of food. And the only reason we are fat now is because 1. There's too much food in some places. 2. We fraked with the food, refined it, food colored it, HFCed it. 3. We're stupid. We feed our kids sweetened cereal. Let them eat stuff I'm eating today
I've heard the insulin arguments but I think there's more to learn. If high carbs are so bad, how do you explain the Okinawans. If you mean a diet of bagged and processed foods/insulin I will have to agree. http://www.sciencedirect.com/scie...=16b23b48dfe82a822b1946bd69de423d You, me, all of us are most likely coming off some aspect of the SAD diet. And now, not limited to America. Companies will fight to keep us eating Crap. It's in our face day after day. And it's not easy. I have to go. I'm having Doughnuts and coffee with my Father today
Best wishes, Avalon
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| Kristi31 |
Avalon,
Whatever works for you...As I'Ve said many times before, as long as you're happy and healthy, that's what counts. I just wouldn't enjoy it personally. I'm also sharing what I know. I am, in no way, 100% certain of my assertions. Maybe it sounds like that but with everything anyone says, including me, take it with a grain of salt, do your own research and try to come up with the best answer. In the end, the truth is unattainable, all we have are theories.
Enjoy your doughnuts!
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| Carnation |
It frustrates me that diet is something that we should ever have to discuss at length/debate or obsess over. Certainly I'm guilty.
On one hand, I really like the argument for simplicity. It makes good intuitive sense. On the other hand, our bodies have been so inundated with chemicals, in our food and water, in our homes, in our environment, and many of us have also subjected our bodies to the form of torture known as an eating disorder. Perhaps with all of these factors, things can never be simple for our modern bodies. 
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| waywardsister |
Agreed, 100%. 20, 25, 30+ years of SAD eating plus other factors you mentioned mean we're not arriving at any new dietary regimen in a state of grace. Gotta work with where we're at. |
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| Avalon |
I used to sniff rubber cement glue and inhale aerosol Psssssst Shampoo! Lord help me! Once while inhaling spray, I was floating away, drifting off somewhere and I was nearly gone when I popped my eyes open and gasped for dear life! That was close! 
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| waywardsister |
I went through a huffing phase top in my misspent youth, not to mention some other choice chemicals. Grew up near a nuclear power plant, and a cement factory (lots of asthma in my hometown).
Aerosol shampoo?????? |
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| adwred |
I've never heard of aerosol shampoo either! | ||||||
| Avalon |
I don't know if they make it anymore. OMG! They do!
http://www.walgreens.com/store/pr...src=14110944&ci_sku=sku394044 But when I was inhaling, The Carpenters were on the radio ehh... first time around. Bless the Beast and the Potato
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| Nicola |
Hi Avalon,
Do you understand your way of eating - I mean those plants must show up some how: digestion and metabolism is hard on the body and mind! Don't plant fiber and toxins cause trouble - fermenting, colon? What about carbs; don't they affect you...and all those meals? Just thought you could speek a few words of wisdom - besides loosing weight...
What about heavy legs, water retention, skin and all the others little things. Nicola |
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| Avalon |
Good Morning Nicola,
I don't seem to suffer from water retension. Or, I'm just ignorant about it. Ignorance is bliss What do you mean by heavy legs? I've been really lucky with skin I guess. Every blue moon I may get a pimple on my bottom but that's about it. The truth is I'm not sure I feel any different eating more potatoes and veggies than when I was eating more meat raw or cooked. The thing is being lighter makes me happy, so that alone makes me happy. I am enjoying the exploration of it all. Trying new things. Making Potato Tartar. Eating Kim Chee for the first time. It was exciting when I tried eating raw liver for the first time. And I hate cooked liver! Hate it! My least favorite food of all time. Yet give it to me raw with a little soy and it's okay. Who knew.
Give me a month and who knows, I may be on some other diet, but all I can say is there are people who say this woe is healthy Just like eating a high raw meat diet.
I really need to take two weeks, have no wine in between, and get a blood test to see what my levels are. Because I would like to know. Maybe I'll do that. My Sister said to me the other day that if she doesn't get enough sleep, her '8hrs' she's just not right for the rest of the day. I find this interesting because I do like to sleep. I love to dream! But I've never felt off if i get 6 vs 7 or 8 hours sleep. Never occurred to me. I don't seem to suffer from joint aches, knock on wood. Just a lot of old fillings need replacing. 'Kay, I'm babbling now. Best wishes, Xeta
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| Nicola |
Good afternoon Avalon
I noticed that when I was eating grain, potato (starch) that it would make me feel heavy, go to my legs and work on the mind (a cloged up the system). Because you are eating lots of fruit and starch (inkl. skins...) I thought this must cause gas and other "little" troubles one does not connect to for several years (we no that the body and mind put up with things for a long time). Perhaps you can get away with a lot - if your mind works with your body this way and you can make ends meet, then that is grate .
Nicola |
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| Avalon |
Thanks Nicola,
And if your way of eating is working for you, that's terrific also! 
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| Free |
Lately I have been finding that fiber is the main culprit for me, especially the insoluble type. Carbs just don't cause me any problems at all, in fact they give me increased energy. I have even been able to eat a small amount of fruit lately, without too much trouble, but it is only small amounts of certain fruits.
I am also finding that red meat gives me more trouble than any other type now. We have had 16+ days over 110 degrees here in the past month, and I find that I can not tolerate the heat, when I eat red meat. There is something in the Ayurvedic diet philosophy that explains that, and I find it to be the truth. I think that it is not unusual to expect different reactions from foods, eaten in different climates, and different times of the year. There seems to be a strong desire, in many people (myself included) to try to find the one diet to eat, all the time, for everyone, and that is probably not a healthy perspective. I am finding that this whole diet thing is very fluid, and changing, and it is good to recognize this and go with the flow.
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| Carnation |
That's interesting Free. I don't know much about what the historical evidence shows, but it makes sense that perhaps people would have been eating larger game, and thus, red meat, in the colder months, whereas they might have more of an opportunity to roam and eat a variety of fish or seafood and small birds and game in the summer. And a lot of people just seem to prefer "lighter" foods in the summer, too. I know I go through periods where red meat satisfies my deepest desires, and other times when it doesn't hit the spot in exactly the same way. Right now, I'm mad for bird.
On a side note, my mind can't help but stick the dracula head on your new avi.
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| Free |
I guess I am going to have to put my head on there eventually. In the mean time, you can see my head on the new exercise video I posted today on YouTube. That way you can get the Dracula picture out of your mind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIkyPZnppv0 |
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| Carnation |
Ok, you're really not helping your own case if you're tired of all of us pestering you to become a sperm donor.
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| Carnation |
Ok, free, sorry, still trying to pick my jaw up off my chest. Have you always just concentrated on bodyweight exercises? I'm really inspired by your level of fitness. | ||||||
| Free |
30 years ago, when I was a teenager, I did some weightlifting, but in my early twenties, I made the horrible mistake of starting a Vegan diet, which made me very weak, and ill, and unable to workout. After almost 20 years of that (I was really stubborn) I started adding back meat into my diet, slowly regained my strength, and started working out again. I tried to start lifting weights again, but my joints just couldn't handle it. So, I started doing bodyweight exercises, and isometrics. I built myself back up in my late 40's into almost as good a shape as I was when I was a Teen. I am definitely sold on that way of working out, and have been doing it exclusively for about 4 years, without any weights at all. I do mostly Push Ups, and Pull Ups. Here is a Pull Up video I just posted: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ewJcAGHmZ8 |
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| Carnation |
I hear ya on the vegan thing. Although I didn't practice it for as long as you, my health will forever suffer. | ||||||
| Kristi31 |
Wow...my kind of man...keep up the good work.
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| Avalon |
Nice pull-ups! and cool bar! Never seen one like that before being out of the loop for a gazillion years and stuff. | ||||||