| Archive for Active No-Carber Forums A veggie-free zone |
| teknodamage |
bodybuilding discussion continued...
yeah, unfortunately... I hope it grows.
well, Mike Mentzer had one of the best physiques ever... not to mention Casey Vitor. Sure they're possibly genetic freaks, but I'm gonna go ahead and give it a shot. I just finished a routine of progressively increased sets to failure... (week one - 2 sets, week four - 4 sets, all the way up to 6 sets in six weeks, then restarting the cycle at 2 sets) and all to complete failure. My workouts became long and I was working out on a 6 day split! I was getting stronger every week, but I eventually got sick ... I wonder why? Thus you could understand why the pendulum has swung the opposite direction for me. Very high intensity don't scare me one iota... I"ll workout till I puke. I'm just sick of the long, daily workouts. So perhaps the big change up would be a real boost for me as well.
I totally agree! Change is required for all models of energy in the universe in order to progress or evolve... remaining on one regimen forever will possibly make you grow to a certain point and then only maintain the progress you've made. The ideal workout regimen would then be one that consistently changes on an inconsistent basis! Ha!
HIIT kicks your ass every time. Funny you mention it... I've been thinking about getting back on the HIIT wagon. I'm interested to see how well my body reacts to it on zero-carb... have you had any luck with doing HIIT on a treadmill?
well, Mike Menzter, I've heard, is an interesting read. T-Nation is where I get the majority of training advice... I got interested in HIT after reading the recent Dr. Darden article touting his new book.
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| Cavemate K |
Thanks for picking up the thread here. I was starting to feel guilty!  I agree that randomness is the best for progress and adaptation. OTOH I think, at least in the beginning, structure is a luxury! Anyone here tried any routines starting out that worked well for them? I'm kind of intrigued by the idea of three days/wk weights - two of upper body and one of lower, then switching the order the following week and so on. Anyone tried this?
K |
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| teknodamage |
Honestly, in the beginning, doing anything will get you results. Doing the 3 day week split is a great routine especially with compound lifts! Squats, bench, row, chin, deadlift, close-grip bench press, military press... you know what I mean. 3x8-10 per exercise would be a good choice with that routine as well. My brother has been doing this exact routine for nearly a year now and he's still getting stronger and has put on an impressive amount of muscle mass while still losing a lot of flab.
I say keep doing something until it stops working and then change the routine. |
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| cygnus |
Hey Tekno, I want one of those!!!!!
You posted something about Anthony Colpos bb site. Low carb musle forum I think it is excellent ,though a little under seen at the moment. He and I have communicated and he is one sharp mf'er, he knows his stuff and he is ripped to shreds. He eats twice a day. He has about 450 grams of meat,, then some kindof orange veggie and then for dinner he has another 450 grams of meat and a veggie. He will sometimes roast up some strawberries,but that is his diet. He is big on Pavel and Leo costa(Bulgarian Lifting system). |
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| cygnus |
If you have seen this pic I apologize.. Very low carbs and high intensity training.. Not Arnold ,but very impressive eh? |
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| Cavemate K |
I've been a fan of Colpo's for a while now. It's a shame that theomnivore.com went belly up, but it's understandable given all of the work he had to do without financial compensation. I thought I heard him mention somewhere that he was working on a fitness book next. I'll probably be first in line for that!
K |
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| teknodamage |
Hell yeah Cygnus! It's the best purchase ever! Get one! If you do sets to failure by yourself it's a godsend! Or any powerlifting for that matter! One downfall that comes to my mind though is that you can't do clean and jerks unless you're really short.
I hate going to the gym, it's just another thing I have to pencil in on my schedule. I wake up, get moving a little on my treadmill, step off and start squattin'! If you get one though, make sure it's one of the good ones. This one in the picture is 1000lbs capacity... many other ones are around 500-600 capacity, which boggles my mind. This one is the Powertec model. I got the powertec utility bench separate also with the leg extension/press attachment. yeah, I believe I heard the same about Colpo writing a fitness book. I'm sure I'll get it. Have you guys checked out his book "The Great Cholesterol Con"? Great stuff! He, imo, is a definite authority regarding low-carb weight training... Not to mention Dan John! DJ was on this forum a while back, I don't know if he gets on it anymore. I wish he was here to jump in on the conversations. He was featured in T-Nation's Low-Carb Roundtable discussion... he talked about putting his athletes on zero-carb! Something you don't hear too much at t-nation. He was also another culprit in my initial interest going this route. Yeah, too bad theomnivore.com is no more... back when I discovered the site I rediculed it... then when I was finally convinced of this woe he took the site down... ha! Yes, I've seen that pic of him cygnus... he's got it down! He does think PWO carbups have their place though... As I've said, I won't experiment with that until I'm below 12-10% bf. However, I am keeping my eye on Art De Vany's literature as well. Did you guys check out that guy Dave Gulledge in one of my previous posts??? What a freak! His pics are my motivational photos... as a laugh I posted it on my myspace page as my pic and all my friends that haven't seen me in a while really thought it was me. We look almost identical in the face in some of his pictures. |
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| cygnus |
That dude has the thickest erectors I have ever seen!!
Yeah Dan Johns is a great guy. He is doing Alwyn Cosgroves AfterBurn program for his cutting stage..he is looking good Yeah Colpo rides a bike as well and noticed that his times and energy were diminshing so he started adding some post workout carbs . I'm not sure about preworkout though. I used to try some prewokout carbs and I would just go hypoglycemic and get tired(not good tired) in the middle of my workouts. I just wanted to crash.. |
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| teknodamage |
they're unreal. |
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| Cavemate K |
What exactly are erectors? I coudn't find the other posts you were talking about. Cygnus, if carb-loading made you crash (I'm disgusted with it myself) then do you "protein-load" or "fat-load" before you hit the weights? Thanks.
K |
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| teknodamage |
here he is... with before and after pics. 
that last one shows his erectors (lower back) ... just incredible. Definitely from powerlifting. these are after he carb loaded. 
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| cygnus |
No fat or protein loading. I like to work out on an empty stomach, then take in some glutamine with whey post workout. But I do feel your diet should lean more in a higher fat to protein ratio. You get better hormone output and I feel better size
I just think carbs are not a good part of the equation..they do have their place for some post workout or a load every 3 days,but I think starchy carbs are just a no no. Tekno, I personally feel that guy looked better before his carb up. He is dialed in and hard as a rock. Too bad this guy has high lats, he'd have one of the best backs ever! Surely one of the thickest! |
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| teknodamage |
no doubt... he didn't need a carb load. | ||||||||||||
| teknodamage |
So today I'm gonna end my weight training hiatus. It's been a few months now and it's time. I'm gonna do 5 consecutive full body routines 1x10 with moderate weight, all compound moves, to get my body back into resistance mode. If I'm still sore next week then I'll do the same but only mon,wed,fri... but it probably won't be needed. After that I'm gonna go ahead and give HIT a go. I'm also gonna start some running. I'm thinking 10-12 mins of HIIT, 3 times a week. Wish me luck boys, hopefully in a couple months I'll have some before and after photos to look at progress. | ||||||||||||
| cygnus |
Sounds like a good plan Tekno..but if you do HIT, I'm not sure if you are gonna want to do HIIT. You will be spent..but then again, you are a youngin' so you just may kick ass!! | ||||||||||||
| teknodamage |
I thought about that... I'm gonna start slow with HIIT... I'll start at 4 minutes and every 3rd workout add another minute until I reach 15 mins over an 8 week period. I think that would be more realistic. I'll definitely not do it on weight days. |
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| cygnus |
Excellent!!
I may have to join in with you guys and get my crap together. I'm still working on getting my health back,but I do need to get back to lifting. |
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| adwred |
Ok, this is going to sound stupid, but what the hell is HIT and HIIT?? | ||||||||||||
| cygnus |
HIT is High Intensity Training..weightlifting. Was "developed" by Arthur Jones infamous for Nautilus but made famous by the Mentzer brothers.
HIIT HIgh Intensity Interval Training. Cardio. The first time I became aware of it was years ago when Muscle Media was a great magazine. Basically it is short but intense cardio. In a nutshell it is brief all out intensity for a duration followed by a cool down. Example for running. All out running for 20 seconds followed by a slow jog for 20 seconds. As Tekno stated in his post,you start out with 4 minutes and add a minute every few workouts till you reach 15 minutes. There is no cardio regime that works better IMO |
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| adwred |
Ah, OK! So, Tekno, by 'start at 4 minutes' do you mean that you're running hard for 1- minute bursts for 4 minutes total, or you're running hard and cooling down at 4-minute intervals?
So 5 consecutive - that means a full body workout every day for 5 days? |
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| Cavemate K |
Sorry to jump in awdred, but tekno, if you're ready then go for it!!! If you can provide us with before and after photos... then you've got guts that I can only dream about!  ...
...for now! K |
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| teknodamage |
Hey Adwred!
Sorry for the lag in response... Go read about it here.. http://www.musclemedia.com/training/hiit.asp The tables that are linked at the bottom of the page show exactly what I'm doing. It does kick your ass!!! Hence the need to ease into it slowly. It'll shed body fat like no other cardio program though. As for the 5 consecutive days... I cancelled that plan... after monday I was so damn sore I could hardly walk up and down my stairs at home. I didn't think I was over doing it but it's just that I haven't been lifting for some time now. I'm thinking on saturday I'm just gonna begin my HIT routine which is similar to this... Workout 1 Bench Press 6 to 10 reps With no rest do Incline Press 2 to 4 reps Close Grip (Palm Up) Lat Pulldowns 6 to 10 reps Deadlift 5 to 8 reps. Rest at least 3 days. Workout 2 Squats 8 to 15 reps With no rest do Leg Press 8 to 15 reps Calf Raise 12 to 20 reps Rest at least 3 days. Workout 3 Dumbell Laterals 6 to 10 reps Rear Laterals 6 to 10 reps. Barbell Curls 6 to 10 reps. Tricep Pressdowns 6 to 10 reps. With no rest do Dips 3 to 5 reps. Rest at least 3 days. Workout 4 Leg Press 8 to 15 reps With no rest do Squat 8 to 15 reps. Calf Raise 12 to 20 reps. Rest at least 3 day. Go back to Workout 1, etc. * Slow controlled reps 4 secs up 2 secs hold and 4 secs down. * Only one set to failure, per exercise. |
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| teknodamage |
well, It's motivation for myself and others to just throw it out there. If I say I'm gonna do it and end up falling off the wagon then it only serves to belittle me. however... I'm not gonna put up any photos until there is an obvious difference in my physique! lol! however long it takes! |
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| wildandfreehumyn |
So, how's the routine going for you?
I do something similar, but am doing a warmup set (about 50% weight), then two sets of 5-6 reps at twice the warmup weight. I have been doing each muscle type twice a week rather than one. I am considering dropping to once a week per muscle type, but this seems to be working for me right now. I also do HIIT sprinting on a track, 1/11 of a mile per lap, I do one lap sprinting intervalled with one lap brisk walk/jog until I have sprinted a mile and walked/jog a mile. This usually takes me about 15 minutes. I also do some on a rowing machine and a treadmill, but the treadmill lasts about 30 minutes, with 90 second intervals at 6.5 mph and 8 mph. I was thinking about shortening that one too and widening the speed gap between intervals (like 8.5 or 9 mph and 5 mph). I also do alot of things like yoga and balance training too...I like to be well-rounded in that way. Any thoughts? I just saw T-Nation for the first time today. I have some reading to do. I am almost 100% no-carb too. |
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| teknodamage |
well, i just got back from vacation + the holidays... so I got off track. I began again yesterday with HIIT on my treadmill... I only did 4mins after a 5 minute warm-up... it kick my ass. On friday I'll ad another minute. Today I'm doing workout #1 that I wrote in the previous post. I can't stand warmup sets... I use to do them but they make my workouts way too long for what I want. I find a general 5-10 minute warmup prior to lifting does the job for me. Plus, as far as HIT goes, the first few reps account for a sufficient warmup because of the very slow reps. Man, you sprint whole laps? How long does the sprint take you? Any kind of HIIT performed at 15-20 mins is elite in my mind. What's your bf%? |
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| wildandfreehumyn |
Well, I sprint those 1/11th of a mile laps, yes. I guess that works out to 160 yards each. I have never timed one sprint lap directly (I don't tend to be the type to really count/time or pay attention to numbers really closely...for this reason I haven't checked my bf% either). I feel great though.
I did have someone in the gym (it's an indoor track, it's cold here---although warmer than usual!) ask if I was a professional sprinter...um...no... .
Thanks for the ideas on the warm up set, I will try doing without them. Are you just doing the one set per exercise and slow? |
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| teknodamage |
professional sprinter.. hahah Yes, I'm just doing 1 set to failure and the rep count is 4 seconds up 2 seconds hold and 4 seconds on the negative. Eventually I wanna start running on a track... I like having the convenience of a treadmill though. When i get into more shape I'll try to find a space that's clear enough for me to sprint outside. |
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| Ogden |
RE: HIIT, I have a question. So I’ve seen several sources on HIIT and some seem to indicate that it’s just a function of time and intensity, meaning that you go hard for a set period of time, then you go moderate for the same amount of time. Then I’ve seen some sources (It’s been a while or I’d post a link) that appear to say that HIIT is related to heart rate and you should go hard for a set time to elevate you heart rate to a high percentage of your max, then go moderate so your heart rate drops. They indicated, in my mind, that it was this rise and fall, from a high percentage of your max heart rate to a moderate percentage of your max heart rate, that really gave you the cardio benefits; the increase in max VO2, and the continuing fat burn after the shorter bout of cardio.
So, maybe it’s the same thing, but for a person in moderate shape, going hard, I can get my heart rate elevated reasonably high in 30 seconds, (especially after a couple of intervals) but it takes about a minute to a minute and a half for it to get back down to the lower range. Now, I’m not complaining really, a minute and a half recovery from 70-80% max heart rate sounds fine to me, but it seems like if I pay attention to my heart rate, then I can’t do a simple 30 sec/ 30 sec pattern, and if I do a 30/30 pattern then I’m not hitting the lower heart rate target. I hate traditional cardio. I’d much rather lift, or do core/balance exercises, but HIIT, I really dig. It’s quick, it kicks your ass, and then you’re done and off to something else (in my case, something I’d rather be doing). I’m just not quite sure I’m getting it right, though it definitely has been good for me, even if I'm not quite getting it right. For reference; I’m getting back into the gym after a month or 6 weeks of slacking off. I use HIIT in combination with three whole-body workouts with at least a day of rest (or at least not a gym workout) between. Day 1 – heavy lift focus, Day-2 bodyweight lift focus, and Day 3- Core strength and balance focus. I try to stay with multi-muscle movements that use my body much as I would in real-life and do not do a whole lot of isolation movements. If I do isolation moves, I try to combine them with something else to like doing dumbell curls while standing/balancing on an overturned bosu-ball. My goals are weight-loss, strength-gains, and improved balance, coordination, and body knowledge. First time poster. I would classify myself as meat and egg curious. I've been low-carb for a while, so it's not all new. Just another step. I may start with a few meat/egg days a week and see how it goes. |
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| teknodamage |
Hey Ogden, welcome to the forum!
I hear you about HIIT... I kinda worried about getting my target heart rate where it needed to be for the sprints and the rest. I think the real key to it is to forget about that stuff and just focus on intensity. Worrying about your heart rate on something like this can only serve to distract you and possibly slow you down. On a treadmill I have the time right in front of me so that's all I'm concerned with. Since you've been doing HIIT you know what I'm talking about. If you're doing it properly then it's gonna kick your ass. Besides, you're body will only let you do what it is capable of. So even though you hear stories about highly conditioned athletes lying on the ground after a round of HIIT, their intensity is at their own current capacity within their fitness level. The same for everyone else or even out-of-shape people. Anyhow, I hate traditional cardio as well... so HIIT is a godsend. I like it also because it conditions you for explosive moves. So if you're into any sports or martial arts it's great. Again, welcome to the forum, jump in! Have you been using a ketogenic diet or just low carbs? |
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| Ogden |
Yeah, I've done the 30/30 and it kicks my ass right quick. When I wait for my heart rate to hit the lower target, it still kicks my ass, I can just go a bit longer, and for more intervals, as the moderate periods are about 1 min or so.
Thanks for the info, got some good stuff via PM as well so I'm going to revamp my HIIT technique. I'm not ketogenic, just low-carb. Have been for a few years. I dropped 50lb at the start and have hovered with another 40 or so to go for a year or so now. I can make a lot of excuses as to why that is, but really I just need to buckle down and kick the weight. I haven't done martial arts for about 10 years, I've taken a wide range of styles (Judo, Karate, Aiki-jujitsu, Chuck Norris) but I'm considering getting involved again. Probably Akido or something along those lines. I'm getting married in March and that's taking a lot of time at the moment, so nothing until after the wedding, but then we'll see. |
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| wildandfreehumyn |
They have this huge timing clock on the track so I finally looked at it while I sprinted. Did single laps at sprinting speed anywhere from 21 seconds long (my best that day) to 27 seconds (the last of 11 sprint laps I ran that day). |
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| wildandfreehumyn |
Today I did those laps in anywhere from 19-25 seconds, mostly averaging 20 seconds per lap.
I see no one else sprinting at my gym. |
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| teknodamage |
I'm still just doing sprinting on my treadmill. My endurance is increasing pretty fast... but it still kicks my ass every time.
A question to anyone who has done HIIT for any long duration... A lot of sources say after 8 weeks of HIIT you should take a 2 week hiatus. Well, do you start low again when going back into the routine? Like if you worked your way up to 15 minutes of HIIT at the end of the cycle, do you start back at 4 minutes when you restart it? |
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| adwred |
I would think no, as it's probably like bodybuilding, in that you always have to push yourself that one bit further to be making progress. Do you find you're burning noticeably more fat now that you're doing HIIT? How many minutes are you up to? |
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| ecrivain |
Have you looked at Max-OT Cardio? It's a decent approach to high-intensity, progressive cardio. It might give you some ideas, at least. |
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| teknodamage |
I'm only up to 6 minutes now and I can definitely feel a difference in my fitness level. I can't say if I'm burning even more fat right now because I'm getting back into the keto-groove and still burning off holiday fat. Once I get to my weight I left off on (220lbs) then I'll be able to tell hopefully. My goal right now is to get down to 205 by March 15th... I think it's easily doable considering my success with this woe and now exercising with it. A thought from a post on another board I read recently... someone mentioned that it's best to wait 2 weeks after being in ketosis to begin or continue a workout regimen. Do any of you agree with this? The way I look at it is that working out will have you arrive in ketoland much faster. But how would working out while the body is, I'm assuming, becoming keto-adapted hamper any benefits? Catabolism? |
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| woof_woof |
Why you keep saying that zero carb diet is catabolic? It's probably the most anti-catabolic diet around. | ||||||||||||
| ReddyMcMeaty |
Popular belief to the point of it being a law, amongst athletes and bodybuilders is that insulin is anabolic (which is true) and that without carbs, your body will be in a catabolic state (which is not true). Maybe that is why. | ||||||||||||
| jl53563 |
I think what he may have been implying is that it may be catabolic during the period of adaptation. It seem possible. There are no carbs to burn.....the body has not yet fully adapted to burning fat....so that leaves muscle, I suppose. But, I would also think that if you are consuming enough calories, it would not be catabolic. | ||||||||||||
| teknodamage |
Correct Jl53563,
I'm only talking about the first two weeks of being on a vlc diet as a bodybuilder/athlete... but not a fully keto-adapted one. I have yet to hear any bodybuilders/athletes claim that they maintained their strength and/or endurance during the first few weeks of vlc. If anything they loose strength and then quickly return to their previous level and even increase their strength after the body adapts. |
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| woof_woof |
According to dr Lutz some of his patients kept loosing muscle mass up to one year after switching to zero carb so I agree that for a while it can be harsh.
But IMO it's just replacing of sick muscle tissue with healthy one. |
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