..

koch900

Think about how primitive HG's and natural predators relate to their food. There is a thankfulness and joy -- and sometimes even play -- associated with killing and eating animals. I've seen more than one documentary that depicts w/ detail how HG's would almost make a game out of hunting. Then there's cats, who always play with their prey before actually eating it. Yet, as you said, we are getting meat from the store.

I'm a quite moral and conscious person like you, bigsea, and a former vegetarian. I didn't like how meat is produced these days. My answer was to just avoid meat althogether, which I now feel was very arrogant of me to do. We have access to really good, nourishing animal food, even if it does come from factories not fields. In this, we're damn lucky. I don't feel guilty at all receiving such a gift!

To me, this life is insanely fun! We get the chance to choose so many different paths and experience so many things -- and get to experience ourselves in many different ways. Food is one of those things. The fact that I can choose to eat meat and fat (the most sought after foods of ancient man) every day at every meal is simply amazing -- and I'm thankful for this! It's allowed me to become much more alive and happy. I think this is ultimately what is most important to me.

Such personal moral choices should be made within the framework of the way things are, I think. To make choices that require denial of the most nourishing food in existence is too forceful, IMO -- especially when it's so abundant! The reality is that we can eat meat every day -- so why not do it? I take heart in believing that someday things will be "right," but for now I just have fun in this crazy world and satisfy my tummy. Cool

Robert

Bear in mind that agriculture kills many small animals. Furthermore, there are microscopic animals that live on plants. So one can't get away from killing animals if they want to eat.

adwred

I agree with everything that Koch said, but I have one more addition:

I don't think that engaging in something that is necessary for the sustenance of life is something that we would be punished for. If animals could live without taking other lives, then that would be one thing, but we are not special here - every living thing needs to take lives to continue to live, whether they are other animals or plants. I don't think I will be punished in death for eating beef any more than a lion will be punished in death for eating a gazelle. Sometimes a lion won't even make the kill itself - it will rely on the hunting of another pride member to supply the food... just like we do. It's just part of life. As long as you're thankful for the food you receive, respect the life of the animal you're eating and try to support the humane treatment of animals while they are alive, then you have nothing to feel guilty about, in my opinion. Yup

unintelligible

Maybe I'm just a cold, heartless bastard, but...

Empathy for food animals is something I have never been able to comprehend. I bear complete, total indifference to (perceived) animal suffering. Whether I buy factory farmed meat from the store, or kill an animal myself either via gun or trap makes zero difference to me. If I were to kill an animal for meat, it makes absolutely no difference whether I kill it "humanely" or if I killed it in a way that was brutally violent and traumatizing to the animal. The only important thing to me is the end result: meat!

From the standpoint of animal suffering, I have no objections to factory farming at all (there better reasons to object to factory farming, such as environmental destruction - but this is unrelated to concerns for animal suffering). It boggles me how anti-factory farming groups are able to use sympathy for animals as a propaganda tool, because it has never affected me. I can visit these places and be perfectly sane; it doesn't look like some horror show to me the way other people make it out to be.

koch900

Jeff726

As a Christian, I simply refer to Romans 14 in a situation like this.

unintelligible

Avalon

SATAN Wrote:

Dave

This thread is useless if people start talking religion and spirituality.

We all have different perspectives.

Punished in the afterlife?

The only religion I know of, that talks about that is the various hindu traditions.

As far as I am aware Christians don't preach about eating meta is bad (well the main strains anyway).

Buddhism advices against killing, but sees no issue with meat eating. There is no 'punishment' in buddhism anyway.

Islam has no issues with it.

I think the various pagans can eat meat.

Real science points to a meat eating diet for humans being optimal.

It comes down to choice. The Bear's spirituality says that there is spirit in everything including plants.

How many bugs do we kill? Micro-organisms that are killed by sterilysing things?

I did find it har dto grapple with it, but decided that it's part of reality. We eat other living 'things' to survive. It's how humans operate.

adwred

Avalon

adwred wrote:

Jeff726

Avalon,

Romans 14 basically deals with disputable matters. And drop that Satan label for me please.

koch900

I think Avalon was quoting me as being SATAN, Jeff. This is between me and her. Seeing as the cat's out of the bag ... Evil

Okay, Avalon, I have a deal for you. As Satan, I can buy and sell souls, and I would really like yours. What do you think? Once your soul is gone, you wouldn't have to worry about silly human ideas concerning compassion and morality and other nonsense.

Name your price. Laugh

bigsea

i apologize my minds a little crazy these days, dunno whats goin on

unintelligible

newcreation

I'm new here, so I hope you will all forgive me for being so bold, if I'm out of line. I just feel like I have to say something.

Unintelligible, I think your post would have been offensive to pretty much anyone who had asked the question the original poster had asked. It almost came across like you were trying to offend. I'm not saying you were, but it seemed that way to me. Bigsea wanted help getting over an issue that was apparently causing a great deal of distress, and you gave a response that pretty much trampled all over those concerns. It was like showing off or something. I don't understand the purpose for that kind of a response. I can't think of any other reason but to offend.

Again, I'm sorry if I'm out of line here--I'm just the new kid on the block, but I was shocked by your post, and I don't even have the same struggle bigsea has.

FWIW, I got a lot out of some of the other posts. Bigsea, I hope some of what the others said helped.

ReddyMcMeaty

While I found unintelligible's post extremely repulsive as well, I'm the type who cares a LOT about humane treatment of animals, I also think that skilled killing with a gun through hunting is a lot better than unskilled killing through arrows or some other more primitive back to nature method which may leave the animal alive for a long time due to inexperience by the hunter. Kill them, and do it fast. The only animal I've killed MYSELF was fish, but I've taken part in skinning both fish and mammals and been on hunting trips before. It's not cool when the animal does not die quickly.

Bigsea, I understand this is a difficult issue for you.. what you might want to look into is Halal butchery, it is the most humane and respectful way of doing it used widely within modern society and there is a VERY strict protocol that must be upheld. Seriously, look into it because it might reconcile your negative feelings.

the_individualist

the_individualist

the_individualist

woof_woof

Funny thread.

Look like other animals kill their prey. Are lions or wolves that much concerned if the victim is killed in a humanitarian way?
No they make sure that it's dead as quickly as possible so they can eat and get lazy.

99% of cows and pigs are born to be eaten otherwise they wouldn't be there in first place.

If you think you sin killing animals, start to eat broccoli and grains instead. Your afterlife will come even sooner.

ReddyMcMeaty

Right, lets start telling people who is and is not allowed to eat meat based on personal feelings. There are people who care about the well being of other humans and creatures and people who don't. As far as I'm concerned we're all allowed to eat meat for optimal health.

adwred

It's one thing to rejoice in eating meat and to even enjoy the thrill of the hunt and another thing entirely to say you 'feel nothing for the animal' and 'don't care if it suffers' or how it dies. That animal is giving its life to keep you alive and make you strong - show it some respect.

newcreation

I guess my objection to unintelligible's post was the insensitivity to the question. I certainly think everyone is entitled to an opinion, and in general, I try not to be offended by other people's opinions.

Having said that, I thought I would weigh in on the issue. Happy

I think everything in nature has a balance. I'll explain.

I think every carnivore in nature has some advantage over its prey--it may not even be going too far to say that in many cases, this would be an unfair advantage. For example, a lion has very sharp teeth and a muscular build. And she uses stealth to catch her prey. Certainly, a gazelle has no chance against a lion. A lion can also outrun many animals. The same could be said of tigers, leopards, and other animals in the cat family. Other predatory animals have other advantages. Alligators are faster in the water than most other animals. Dogs often have the strength of the pack, and an incredible sense of smell. All of these animals kill in ways that are, well, less than humane, and their prey don't stand a chance against them.

Yet animals of prey also have natural defenses so that they don't have to be completely helpless. For example, a gazelle is fast. Many animals can blend into their environment through camouflage, have good hiding places, have toxins or smells or quills to release, etc.

I think the same could be said of man's prey. Nearly every animal is bigger, stronger, and/or faster than we are. Our advantage is our ingenuity, which gives us the ability to make tools and devise strategy to find and kill our meat. In fact, that is our only advantage. For that reason, I don't think it would be a fair thing for us to have to use our hands to kill our prey, since our prey would most certainly outmatch us.

Our advantage, our ingenuity, gives us the ability to choose the most humane method possible to kill our prey, making us the only creature with the ability to even think about minimizing the suffering of our prey.

I think looking at this in terms of this balance could be helpful in reconciling this issue, at least, I hope it is.

unintelligible

koch900

Great comments, everybody Yup

It's kind of nice to hear that there are many perspectives on this issue, even though we all are heavy meat-eaters.

unintelligible I practice primitive skills, also. Ever go to the yearly gatherings held by the Society of Primitive Technology?

While I don't share your feelings about animal deaths, I can relate to the whole "not feeling anything" when an animal dies right in front of me. The only time I really feel something is right before and during the kill. I would say these are feelings of thankfulness more than anything else. Afterwards, there's just an acceptance and letting go of that life -- and then an enjoyment of the meat!

Of course, if you find and animal dead in a trap or on the side of the road, that's just one step away from supermarket meat in terms of how distanced you are from that life, IMO.
________________________________________________
When you stalk, chase, and sweat to procure an animal or if you raise it yourself, there's far more behind the kill, I believe. I cannot share personal experience in this, aside from a goat kill I once witnessed. I have seen how many primitive people relate to their meat in documentaries, and it seems to depend on how that meat was procured that determines the feelings towards it.

In the Amazon, men w/ blowguns hunt monkeys in the trees. They make a game out of it and really enjoy themselves!

In the Kalahari, !kung bushmen track, follow, and finally exhaust an animal over several days before its kill. The man who kills it always pays his respect to the strength the animal displayed during the hunt.

So that's two different ways of killing animals w/ two different perspectives. It's all about how it is done!

Then there's the people who don't hunt but simply receive the meat upon the hunters return. They are just happy that there's good food to enjoy. Yup

I perceive this as thankfulness.

One thing is for sure, though -- when there's meat, there's joy and lots of smiles! Happy

ReddyMcMeaty

I'd rather be killed outright and quickly (unwittingly in the case of our farmed livestock), than live a hellish life cooped up in my own and other animals shit, fed shit, be disease ridden and in pain and then killed in a terrifying manner. People would rather die than be tortured, only we're aware of more than animals...we know what is going on. I imagine all they know is the pain/discomfort or fear, no reasoning behind it and to ME that is not the "right" way of doing things, hence my preference for a humane method of raising and slaughtering animals for human consumption. Lack of intelligence or reason doesn't mean that there is complete numbness in an animal and I believe it is our duty as human beings to NOT inflict suffering on beasts or less intelligent beings, human or animal. I suppose this thread sort of points out what kind of people would be kind to their pets, and who should not own an animal.

As for animals being born to be eaten... I was born as a female to bear children. I see no reason not to live a pleasant life in the meantime and to be treated well by others, rather than live a life of hell and be used merely for my body to continue the species.

unintelligible

woof_woof

Another perspective: Put yourself in the wild. Get very hungry after fasting for a few days due to your ethical reasons and I bet you'll become ruthless hunter eating some of your prey when it's still alive. It's built-in mechanism. You cannot do anything about it.

I would have nothing against eating steaks grown in the lab but they cannot do it yet.

koch900

newcreation

Dave

From my understanding of culutres that are not far removed from 'hunter gatherer scenerio', like the Australian Aboriginie,

They have and had a lot of respect for animals, spiritually and in their culture.

They still hunter them.

You can still have feelings for them, and kill them for food.

At the en dof the day it's about respectful actions, feelings aside.

nick

Jeff726

Avalon

My Brother loved to fish for most of his life. It was one of his most favorite things in the world. Going off in the boat on a lake to catch fish. He would catch and clean them and spend days out on the water. My Family would rent a cabin for a week or two in the adirondaks.

But things are different now for him. He misses the chase, but not the kill. He no longer wants to hurt the fish and has made remarks about- like the movie Predator, how would we like to be hunted and gutted, by creatures ehh something something.

Is the act of killing, say catching and cleaning a fish, or hunting deer- also acculturation? How we are raised? To some it means nothing because that's what they know. The thing is we learn. Some keep learning.

My Brother learned to look at Fish, differently.

highsteaks

I agree with Reddy. We should all be allowed to eat meat without the preaching and moralizing of vegetarians/vegans. But they wouldn't have a leg to stand on if the meat industry was more humane about the way animals are treated.

I get the point that hey, we're killing them anyway, so who gives a damn, but that sort of skips over the unnecessary suffering part. If you can choose between a quick, clean kill and torturing an animal for days, what do you choose? If you choose the latter, I think there's something wrong with you.

We know animals feel something of what we're calling "pain", so what's wrong with trying to minimize that pain?

The Halal suggestion is great if you're looking for your meat to be as cruelty-free as possible.